Service for Some, Slavery for Others • Hacker News Board

Re: Service for Some, Slavery for Others

#21

Post by atemerev » Sun, Apr 28, 2019, 3:58 PM UTC

exelius wrote: post #12

atemerev wrote: post #3

Uber is making life of Uber drivers better, by giving them the option to be an Uber driver and providing customers and rules of engagement. It creates new means of earning a living, instead of taking it away. What is even the question? It is not the best job in the world, but surely beats no job at all.

I vehemently disagree with this. It was maybe true in the beginning when payouts were subsidized by VC, but the most recent rounds of driver payout cuts have led to a situation where a lot of drivers are recent immigrants who “lease” cars on a daily basis (at a rate around 75% of what they make a day). Many speak next to zero English; but that’s ok because Google Maps is localized in their native tongue. I’d say most…

Yes, and yet people still do that voluntarily. Because it beats staying in their home countries. It provides them with the means to adapt to the new place of living, and then move to a better job. Without this step on the ladder, they would live much more miserable lives.

Re: Service for Some, Slavery for Others

#22

Post by elken » Sun, Apr 28, 2019, 3:59 PM UTC

ganonm wrote: post #10

If the proverbial 'man from mars' took a look at developed Western society what might he see? A middle aged man gets up at 7am and climbs into a car, conveniently parked right beside the shabby dwelling he sleeps in. He then spends the next 18 hours ferrying other people from location to location stopping only to use the toilet. He eats when he can - maybe a rushed sandwich during a 5 minute quiet period until he is…

Could you not apply the same logic to any occupation?

I get out of bed, head to an office and build software on the orders of those who pay me, I get summoned to meetings at their behest, I work long hours, only stopping to go to the toilet, I too get home and collapse into bed to repeat the next day.

Re: Service for Some, Slavery for Others

#23

Post by atemerev » Sun, Apr 28, 2019, 3:59 PM UTC

faxi wrote: post #16

atemerev wrote: post #3

Uber is making life of Uber drivers better, by giving them the option to be an Uber driver and providing customers and rules of engagement. It creates new means of earning a living, instead of taking it away. What is even the question? It is not the best job in the world, but surely beats no job at all.

Can't you also say that being a slave assigned to cotton-picking is better than being destitute, in the middle of nowhere, with no food? Or being whipped to death, which is what the master is "forced" to do in cases of extreme disobedience? You can defend literally anything saying they give a choice that gives the victim a better option. I love how it's Uber that is giving drivers a rational option instead of the dri…

Nobody whips Uber drivers or forces them to drive Uber.

Re: Service for Some, Slavery for Others

#24

Post by ThJ » Sun, Apr 28, 2019, 4:00 PM UTC

This kind of perspective is pretty much the standard perspective of the European left. Saying these things is almost like saying nothing, because it's what you expect.

Re: Service for Some, Slavery for Others

#25

Post by Spooky23 » Sun, Apr 28, 2019, 4:00 PM UTC

ganonm wrote: post #10

If the proverbial 'man from mars' took a look at developed Western society what might he see? A middle aged man gets up at 7am and climbs into a car, conveniently parked right beside the shabby dwelling he sleeps in. He then spends the next 18 hours ferrying other people from location to location stopping only to use the toilet. He eats when he can - maybe a rushed sandwich during a 5 minute quiet period until he is…

No, man from Mars sees somebody who is poor.

Re: Service for Some, Slavery for Others

#26

Post by seibelj » Sun, Apr 28, 2019, 4:01 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #14

seibelj wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You assume that uber drivers are ignorant. I assume that people know how to live their own lives. They had the resources to acquire a car and a driver's license. There are many, many worse jobs out there than driving a car.

Most ridesharing drivers are ignorant of the expenses they're incurring, and therefore the effective wage they're receiving. Just because you know how to survive doesn't mean you know how to calculate the return on your time and vehicle investment (clearly, as American personal finance education is woefully inadequate). I find arguments such as that put forth as deeply disingenuous, that most people are rational, exc…

> I'm disgusted really, at arguments... that attempt to insinuate that most people are rational

See - this is where we fundamentally disagree. I don't think that "most" lower-income people are exploited, drooling idiots who get taken for a ride by corporations, the rich, or whatever villain you want to point to.

I do believe most people rationally make decisions, even if you disagree with those decisions. Banning people from living their own lives and making their own decisions, for good or bad, is simply immoral.

Re: Service for Some, Slavery for Others

#27

Post by caprese » Sun, Apr 28, 2019, 4:04 PM UTC

seibelj wrote: post #6

caprese wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The person driving your Uber likely chose that to make money, rather than all the other ways they could have made money, because they prefer it. or didn't perceive the other ways, or didn't have resources for other ways, or wasn't approved for the subset of other ways that they both perceived and had resources for

You assume that uber drivers are ignorant. I assume that people know how to live their own lives. They had the resources to acquire a car and a driver's license. There are many, many worse jobs out there than driving a car.

I would assume there are things you also haven't been exposed to that would help you reach your goals faster and be more fulfilling than what you currently do.

I wouldn't use the word ignorant for that, but I also wouldn't argue about whether the definition would apply.

Re: Service for Some, Slavery for Others

#28

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Apr 28, 2019, 4:05 PM UTC

ganonm wrote: post #10

If the proverbial 'man from mars' took a look at developed Western society what might he see? A middle aged man gets up at 7am and climbs into a car, conveniently parked right beside the shabby dwelling he sleeps in. He then spends the next 18 hours ferrying other people from location to location stopping only to use the toilet. He eats when he can - maybe a rushed sandwich during a 5 minute quiet period until he is…

[deleted]

Re: Service for Some, Slavery for Others

#29

Post by hirundo » Sun, Apr 28, 2019, 4:20 PM UTC

We are all a slave to the needs of our own body. When I'm hungry for instance (or anticipate being hungry), I act to serve that slave master.

If you offer to pay me to drive you from point A to B and I freely accept, you do not become my slave master just because you exploit my need to serve my true master. I would be worse off if you failed to exploit that need.

The final slave master is mother nature, and she's a heartless bitch. It's frequently easier to blame our fellow slaves. The true slave masters are the ones that offer pain instead of cash for your labor.

If you want to blame an actual person for your pain and identify them as your slave master, the one with the most choice in the matter was probably your mother. Blame her. And also give her a call and tell her you love her, because it's almost Mother's Day, and there are good parts to being alive too.

Re: Service for Some, Slavery for Others

#30

Post by aqi » Sun, Apr 28, 2019, 4:26 PM UTC

The problem is much bigger than the existence of these gig economy services. The deeper issue is that demand for unskilled labor has become weak enough that, for many people, this is their best option relative to their skill set. Working conditions are terrible, but I don't think it would be a good thing for the world if Uber and the rest of the gig economy services magically disappeared one day: it would simply put the drivers into a financial tailspin with no real chance of escape. Moreover, Uber and Lyft are in a race to the bottom in terms of prices, and neither can unilaterally raise driver wages without pushing riders to the other app. The global economic rat race to drive down prices is unrelenting.

I suspect that universal basic income will become extremely popular in the public view, bordering on necessity, to offset the rise in inequality in the United States.