Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Service for Some, Slavery for Others

gerrymcgovern.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

11–20 of 41 posts

Re: Service for Some, Slavery for Others

#11

Post by thomasahle »

atemerev wrote: post #3

Uber is making life of Uber drivers better, by giving them the option to be an Uber driver and providing customers and rules of engagement. It creates new means of earning a living, instead of taking it away. What is even the question? It is not the best job in the world, but surely beats no job at all.

There's an argument to be made that Uber is tricking people into making bad decisions; by easy upfront money, gamification and what not.

Some studies have shown that after taxes, gas, wear on cars etc. many drivers are really losing money: https://www.fastcompany.com/40538647/nearly-a-third-of-uber-...

Re: Service for Some, Slavery for Others

#12

Post by exelius »

atemerev wrote: post #3

Uber is making life of Uber drivers better, by giving them the option to be an Uber driver and providing customers and rules of engagement. It creates new means of earning a living, instead of taking it away. What is even the question? It is not the best job in the world, but surely beats no job at all.

I vehemently disagree with this.

It was maybe true in the beginning when payouts were subsidized by VC, but the most recent rounds of driver payout cuts have led to a situation where a lot of drivers are recent immigrants who “lease” cars on a daily basis (at a rate around 75% of what they make a day). Many speak next to zero English; but that’s ok because Google Maps is localized in their native tongue. I’d say most of the drivers on the east coast fall into this category.

Does that sound familiar? Because it’s exactly how the legacy taxi industry worked. People would bring their relatives over, have them drive a taxi they owned, and collect nearly all of their earnings from providing a room to sleep in and a car to drive. It’s exploitative, yet it’s often one of the only jobs available to these communities. And Uber has zero disincentive to just pretend this old business model hasn’t just carried over into the new world where there’s no government regulation to address it.

Re: Service for Some, Slavery for Others

#13

Post by gfodor »

I hate "analysis" like this, which is divorced from data or trends over time to make fair comparisions. Here are some actual questions worth answering, and likely could be, based upon data:

- What income levels are Uber drivers (and others being paid by these companies) within their region? How do these wages compare to other non-skilled, non-physical labor?

- When asked, what do these workers say about their working conditions? Why do they choose to work for these companies vs some other low-skill job?

- What about mobility? What is the average duration of a person's "career" as an Uber driver? What is the distribution of outcomes? What events typically cause entry and exit from a contract relationship with Uber?

I am genuinely curious if the prevalence always-available of low-barrier-to-entry/exit, low physical labor "gigs" like Uber has resulted in increased income mobility, standard of living, etc, for those working for these companies. It seems that the kinds of questions by this author are only relevant insofar as companies like Uber have displaced other opportunities or driven down the standard of living of their contractors. One factor that seems particularly troubling is the fact these contractors are not employees, and so have no bargaining power, benefits, etc, which may become normalized due to the introduction of these jobs as other companies try to compete for these workers.

It's unclear to me if Uber et all simply add more jobs for the unskilled labor pool to consider or in fact are having a negative effect on bargaining power, average wages, and income mobility compared to the previous regime of unskilled, non-physical labor opportunity pool (retail, fast food, etc.)

It sure would be nice if there was a clear answer to this question based upon data.

Re: Service for Some, Slavery for Others

#14

Post by toomuchtodo »

seibelj wrote: post #6
caprese wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The person driving your Uber likely chose that to make money, rather than all the other ways they could have made money, because they prefer it. or didn't perceive the other ways, or didn't have resources for other ways, or wasn't approved for the subset of other ways that they both perceived and had resources for

You assume that uber drivers are ignorant. I assume that people know how to live their own lives. They had the resources to acquire a car and a driver's license. There are many, many worse jobs out there than driving a car.

Most ridesharing drivers are ignorant of the expenses they're incurring, and therefore the effective wage they're receiving. Just because you know how to survive doesn't mean you know how to calculate the return on your time and vehicle investment (clearly, as American personal finance education is woefully inadequate).

I find arguments such as that put forth as deeply disingenuous, that most people are rational, exceptionally educated economic actors (if you can convince someone to give you an auto loan and a drivers license, which are extremely low bars, than you can clearly determine if gig economy work is in your best interests), when overwhelming evidence proves otherwise. To me, it comes off as justifying exploitation (ie "the gig economy"), which clearly has no place in first world countries or this century. But, with the number of tech workers who are employed at highly compensated at exploitative entities, I am not surprised in the least.

Re: Service for Some, Slavery for Others

#15

Post by atemerev »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #9
atemerev wrote: post #3

Uber is making life of Uber drivers better, by giving them the option to be an Uber driver and providing customers and rules of engagement. It creates new means of earning a living, instead of taking it away. What is even the question? It is not the best job in the world, but surely beats no job at all.

"no job at all" means welfare, which may give you the time and training opportunity to get a better job

There are many people who are not allowed or don’t have the opportunity to get welfare (immigrants, people who lose the competition for welfare — it is not a straightforward process, etc.) Not to mention that welfare is not limitless and usually quite low compared to working income, even from driving Uber.

Re: Service for Some, Slavery for Others

#16

Post by faxi »

atemerev wrote: post #3

Uber is making life of Uber drivers better, by giving them the option to be an Uber driver and providing customers and rules of engagement. It creates new means of earning a living, instead of taking it away. What is even the question? It is not the best job in the world, but surely beats no job at all.

Can't you also say that being a slave assigned to cotton-picking is better than being destitute, in the middle of nowhere, with no food? Or being whipped to death, which is what the master is "forced" to do in cases of extreme disobedience? You can defend literally anything saying they give a choice that gives the victim a better option.

I love how it's Uber that is giving drivers a rational option instead of the drivers giving Uber a rational option. It could go the other way, and be people giving Uber a "choice" of paying better and halting self-driving research or go out of business.

Re: Service for Some, Slavery for Others

#17

Post by esotericn »

If you are of the view that everyone does what they do because they're somehow economically forced into it then you're going to see the world as a very dark place indeed.

Whether you're correct in that view or not is almost irrelevant because the effect will be the same. It's going to infect your every interaction.

Honestly, I find this more of a common sentiment amongst historically well off folk. I grew up poor and this sort of "everything is awful because we're slaves" mindset didn't exist.

Not everyone has the skill or capital to apply for any job or start any business tomorrow. That much is obvious. That's a very different concept from slavery.

Re: Service for Some, Slavery for Others

#18

Post by atemerev »

thomasahle wrote: post #11
atemerev wrote: post #3

Uber is making life of Uber drivers better, by giving them the option to be an Uber driver and providing customers and rules of engagement. It creates new means of earning a living, instead of taking it away. What is even the question? It is not the best job in the world, but surely beats no job at all.

There's an argument to be made that Uber is tricking people into making bad decisions; by easy upfront money, gamification and what not. Some studies have shown that after taxes, gas, wear on cars etc. many drivers are really losing money: https://www.fastcompany.com/40538647/nearly-a-third-of-uber-...

Perhaps. However, this is a problem with Uber’s dark practices, not the service economy in general. I have a friend who is a successful full-time Uber driver, bringing home about $5000 each month (this is Switzerland, so it is not a huge salary, but about what a non-immigrant retail worker makes here — and such jobs becoming increasingly rare here).

Re: Service for Some, Slavery for Others

#20

Post by [deleted] »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #9
atemerev wrote: post #3

Uber is making life of Uber drivers better, by giving them the option to be an Uber driver and providing customers and rules of engagement. It creates new means of earning a living, instead of taking it away. What is even the question? It is not the best job in the world, but surely beats no job at all.

"no job at all" means welfare, which may give you the time and training opportunity to get a better job

[deleted]
Post reply on HN