ProtonMail now offers elliptic curve cryptography • Hacker News Board

Re: ProtonMail now offers elliptic curve cryptography

#41

Post by phito » Thu, Apr 25, 2019, 2:08 PM UTC

__ralston3 wrote: post #38

As a PM customer of almost a year, I'd definitely say they should focus more efforts on the UI/UX as opposed to advancing the crypto for now. What's the point of having the world's most cryptologically advanced, unusable inbox. Specifically conversation threading/nesting. I don't expect everyone to be as streamlined as say a Gmail, but basic "1 conversation - 1 email" in the inbox would be nice for starters.

conversation threading works well for me as long as the subject don't change

But I agree with you that the UI lacks several things, like searching in the body of the messages...

Re: ProtonMail now offers elliptic curve cryptography

#42

Post by Forbo » Thu, Apr 25, 2019, 2:10 PM UTC

lvh wrote: post #13

X25519 is great, but it doesn’t make Protonmail (really, OpenPGPjs) a net safe communications mechanism. It inherits all of the flaws inherent in OpenPGP, including optional authenticators (which lead to EFAIL), kitchen sink bulk protocols complete with negotiation (did you know your public keys specify what algorithms you like?), lack of forward secrecy, repudiability, et cetera. We should stop using RSA. But RSA is…

Shouldn't it be possible to have the library built in to the browser? I can't seem to find any information on attempts to make that happen, either directly by browser developers or as an add-on.

Re: ProtonMail now offers elliptic curve cryptography

#43

Post by badpun » Thu, Apr 25, 2019, 2:14 PM UTC

maggit wrote: post #25

reacharavindh wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I use both. FastMail: + simple, lean, paid email. + fast web interface ++ working full text search( not just subject line) + No ads. + iOS App. Fast and simple. + Integrated calendar - No encryption. - group calendar has been a pain or non intuitive. Protonmail: + Encrypted + Lean, safe web interface + IOS App that works. + or - Free as in cost. - - - No Full text search. - can't really configure your chosen email cl…

About this point: "- can't really configure your chosen email client to it..." Do you have any experience with using the IMAP Bridge? It is a daemon you run locally that translates between Protonmail's internal protocol and IMAP, to let you use your email client of choice. I'm using it and it seems to be working OK in my experience, but I don't use my Protonmail account heavily.

My experience with the bridge (on an account with maybe 10k emails) was that it was unfortunately unusable.

Re: ProtonMail now offers elliptic curve cryptography

#44

Post by KirinDave » Thu, Apr 25, 2019, 2:18 PM UTC

This announcement is an example of why I am not using ProtonMail anymore. There are a lot of things they do that sound very good on marketing materials, but upon examination are security theater.

For example, they claim, "We have chosen a particular elliptic curve system known as X25519, which is fast, secure, and particularly resistant to timing attacks. It’s simple to implement".

However, previously they've said that they use Indutny's library [0]. This library is somewhat infamous because its leadership deciding to discard any pretense of defending against timing attacks on the grounds that would make the library "too slow." [1]

There are other options. They could have used something with good timing attack resistance from WebCrypto. Those options exist. Folks with more skill than I have recommended P-256 as an option.

[0]: https://protonmail.com/blog/openpgpjs-3-release/

[1]: https://github.com/indutny/elliptic/issues/128#issuecomment-...

Re: ProtonMail now offers elliptic curve cryptography

#45

Post by wanderfowl » Thu, Apr 25, 2019, 2:21 PM UTC

wil421 wrote: post #2

Anyone using ProtonMail regularly? I created an account but haven’t used it much. How are your experiences? Any iOS users who can comment on their experience with proton mail and the default mail client? I don’t went to switch to something that won’t be around in a decade or so.

One major issue with the iOS client is that it cannot handle more than one Inbox. So, if you use two accounts (e.g. home and work), you can only be logged in in one at a time, and have to go through the full sign-in-sign-out process each time you want to switch. And my understanding is that the iOS app doesn't actually cache email offline, so it's not terribly possible to work on an airplane, etc.

Also, understand that due to the encrypted nature, you can't just point an IMAP client at their servers. They offer separate software to serve as a bridge, but it's complicated. So, you are only using their web interface. They don't offer a native app for OS X, even. So again, no offline mail processing.

I recently put serious thought into moving my personal and business presences to PM to support the idea and normalize serious encryption, but ultimately felt like my need of the security it provides doesn't justify the complexity and UX compromises it forces. But ymmv.

Re: ProtonMail now offers elliptic curve cryptography

#46

Post by motohagiography » Thu, Apr 25, 2019, 2:24 PM UTC

I like protonmail and will likely move my domains to it. I don't use it for regular social, dating, or sales emails because it is a privacy brand that creates cognitive friction with people who don't get privacy and security.

If I wanted to grow protonmail, I would emphasize users moving domains to it because while the brand has exceptional trustworthiness, anything security and privacy themed runs into the "tacti-cool," problem, where even if it's the best available and used by real operators, it triggers peoples sense of illegitimacy, and depends with users who identify with a "rebel," e.g. "losing" team who are not attractive to other users.

IMO, the same problem killed Silent Circle, and the rest of the cryptophone market.

When you look at who overcame the tacti-cool problem in security and privacy, the way a brand like arcteryx did it in clothing, Apple's iPhone has done it in hardware, WhatsApp did it for messengers, and protonmail is just on the cusp of it.

There is an opportunity to build a new privacy brand that would be as big as a FAANG, and if I were running it, I'd fold protonmail into it.

Re: ProtonMail now offers elliptic curve cryptography

#47

Post by anfedorov » Thu, Apr 25, 2019, 2:26 PM UTC

KirinDave wrote: post #44

This announcement is an example of why I am not using ProtonMail anymore. There are a lot of things they do that sound very good on marketing materials, but upon examination are security theater. For example, they claim, "We have chosen a particular elliptic curve system known as X25519, which is fast, secure, and particularly resistant to timing attacks. It’s simple to implement". However, previously they've said th…

Worth noting, in similar vein — https://protonvpn.com/support/macos-ikev2-vpn-setup/

Re: ProtonMail now offers elliptic curve cryptography

#48

Post by KirinDave » Thu, Apr 25, 2019, 2:32 PM UTC

anfedorov wrote: post #47

KirinDave wrote: post #44

This announcement is an example of why I am not using ProtonMail anymore. There are a lot of things they do that sound very good on marketing materials, but upon examination are security theater. For example, they claim, "We have chosen a particular elliptic curve system known as X25519, which is fast, secure, and particularly resistant to timing attacks. It’s simple to implement". However, previously they've said th…

Worth noting, in similar vein — https://protonvpn.com/support/macos-ikev2-vpn-setup/

I don't know OSX very well these days. Is that... is that actually installing a new global SSL trust root? Doesn't that mean ProtonMail now can seamlessly MitM all SSL connections on that machine?

Please tell me I'm reading that wrong, because I don't recall doing this for ProtonVPN on linux.

Re: ProtonMail now offers elliptic curve cryptography

#49

Post by noitsnot » Thu, Apr 25, 2019, 2:38 PM UTC

wil421 wrote: post #2

Anyone using ProtonMail regularly? I created an account but haven’t used it much. How are your experiences? Any iOS users who can comment on their experience with proton mail and the default mail client? I don’t went to switch to something that won’t be around in a decade or so.

I have been using it for more than a year on Android as my primary email in an attempt to leave Gmail. I can recommend. The only issue is when an new email comes in it will group them together and show previously deleted emails in the group.

Re: ProtonMail now offers elliptic curve cryptography

#50

Post by brendyn » Thu, Apr 25, 2019, 2:48 PM UTC

I was silly enough to sign up without looking in to it because it was recommended on HN. Then I realised they need this bridge software to connect. I asked about it stating I'd like to build it my self and confirm it is libre software. They just sent back a generic link to a .deb beta file. I had a look and its got this eula.txt with the standard you-have-no-rights. Messaged them again asking what they intended to do license-wise and they ignored me. Someone else has written their own bridge and put it on github but it's a bit of a joke to have to do that. Not sure what to move to now, mailbox.org was another I saw recommended.

My email history: - gmail.com > US spying, escape. - lavabit.com > Shutdown due to US government legal attack. - Ran my own server > Too much bother, gave up. - openmailbox.org > Died for months, ran away with my money. - protonmail.com > Sketchy, cancelling it now. - Free mailbox.org with custom domain.