Live data from Hacker News

They think they are above the law: the firms who own America's voting system

theguardian.com

181–190 of 200 posts

Re: They think they are above the law: the firms who own America's voting system

#181
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of that matters with regard to what I said. Probably none of it matters with regard to what is really going on, either. Our job as plebians is to get really distracted arguing about the details of the various fig leaves and whose fig leaves are better, but that's all they really are. I don't see any reason to care about them any more than our political class (really) does.

This is a non sequitur response to an informed and interesting comment, which 'tzs clearly took pains to compose and which addresses in detail the claim you made above. You'd have been better off not commenting at all than writing this.

I disagree. tzs keeps trying to pin me down to disagreeing with "Democrats want the vote to be solid and the evilnasty Republicans keep stopping them", but the point I want to make is that the theory that parties act in their interest is far more explanatory than the theory that the parties act in accordance with their stated principles. (Stated principles are of some modest help in determining why the parties are made up of the specific interests they are, but it's far from determinative.) Do the Democrats believe that any of the measures that tzs defends is going to increase Republican voting, and they are pursuing them even so? That would be relevant. Give me some evidence of that and I'll admit at the very least a rare admission against interest, and at most that I'm wrong about this. But I don't believe it to be true. I'm pretty sure they think that if they get those things, they'll get more Democrat votes.

How exactly Democrats defend their position for policies that will result in Democratic voting power isn't that relevant for my point.

Re: They think they are above the law: the firms who own America's voting system

#182
post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a non sequitur response to an informed and interesting comment, which 'tzs clearly took pains to compose and which addresses in detail the claim you made above. You'd have been better off not commenting at all than writing this.

I disagree. tzs keeps trying to pin me down to disagreeing with "Democrats want the vote to be solid and the evilnasty Republicans keep stopping them", but the point I want to make is that the theory that parties act in their interest is far more explanatory than the theory that the parties act in accordance with their stated principles. (Stated principles are of some modest help in determining why the parties are ma…

First, that is nothing at all like what 'tzs said, and it's rude to suggest otherwise. Second, this new argument essentially shuts down the whole discussion. What you're saying is that there's no explanation about census policy that can override your somehow-infallible observation that this is all a political sideshow. Why bother participating in the discussion at all, then? You've already made that point. Did you need to make it 3 times?

I have a problem with the pattern on HN of someone taking the time to make an informed comment, and then others trying to shut that person down with handwaving and shouting. If you want to rebut 'tzs, do the legwork and rebut him.

Re: They think they are above the law: the firms who own America's voting system

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No Democrat any where opposes properly identifying voters. One's identity and eligibility to vote is verified upon registration. One's identity is confirmed when being issued a ballot. The current system works so well, until recently [1], that there have been very few cases of voter or registration fraud. If you are you unhappy with forms of identification accepted to be issued a ballot, then you should advocate that…

To clarify, all references to "Democrats" in my comment above are to Dem politicians, not necessarily their supporters. If I could vote, I'd vote for Dems myself, and to the extent that I can participate in politics by supporting political campaigns, I exclusively support Dem candidates of the more progressive variety. > If you are you unhappy with forms of identification accepted to be issued a ballot, then you shou…

Americans have conflicted opinions about privacy, security, civil liberties. I, for one, opposed Real ID until I grokked the counterintuitive notion that encrypting demographic data at rest (PII) is only feasible by issuing and using GUIDs. That subtle realization only happened after working on privacy issues for years, and sadly is still difficult to explain to non geeks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_ID_Act

Translucent Databases 2nd Edition http://www.wayner.org/node/39

--

"...permitting schemes on gun ownership and carry?"

Ha. I almost fell for your trolling. Nice try.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=licensing+fees+poll+tax

https://www.michiganadvance.com/2019/02/19/gop-lawmaker-appe...

FWIW https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poll_tax#Poll_tax

"Often in US discussions, the term poll tax is used to mean a tax that must be paid in order to vote, rather than a capitation tax simply. The Twenty-fourth Amendment, ratified in 1964, prohibits both Congress and the states from conditioning the right to vote on payment of a poll tax or any other type of tax."

Re: They think they are above the law: the firms who own America's voting system

#184
post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a non sequitur response to an informed and interesting comment, which 'tzs clearly took pains to compose and which addresses in detail the claim you made above. You'd have been better off not commenting at all than writing this.

I disagree. tzs keeps trying to pin me down to disagreeing with "Democrats want the vote to be solid and the evilnasty Republicans keep stopping them", but the point I want to make is that the theory that parties act in their interest is far more explanatory than the theory that the parties act in accordance with their stated principles. (Stated principles are of some modest help in determining why the parties are ma…

> I disagree. tzs keeps trying to pin me down [...]

Excuse me? I just went through 90 days of your comment history, and as far as I can see my comment above in this thread is the only time in there (before this comment, of course) that I have responded to one of your comments. I don't see how you can claim "keeps trying to pin me down" from that.

Re: They think they are above the law: the firms who own America's voting system

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We shouldn't attempt anything that'd make their illegal behaviour easier. Like mandatory armbands for your religion, a public record of your voting activities is a terrible and dangerous idea.

You could say the same thing about tax returns, credit reports, Facebook accounts, medical records, etc. For all these things an employer would benefit by coercing an employee to provide them to the employer. But the risk is worth the reward, so we still have these things. Why is a semi-anonymous voting database any different? I could think of some easy mitigations to your concerns with almost no thought. Make it so…

If your employer uses medical records to disqualify you from a position or terminate your employment, get a lawyer because you have a case.

None of those things you mention should be something employers can act on. In many states it would be illegal to factor those things into decisions about hiring, retention, compensation or promotion.

Re: They think they are above the law: the firms who own America's voting system

#186
post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 2016 Democratic platform included a resolution for constitutional amendment to undo Citizens United in the first 90 days, do you think they were hoping to lose? I provided a bunch of evidence over two decades of Democrats uniformly supporting election reform, and Republicans uniformly opposing. If what you say is true, it should be trivial to provide examples of the opposite, so why don't you?

"Citizens United in the first 90 days, do you think they were hoping to lose?" The Democrats believe Citizens United hurts them and benefits Republicans. It does not challenge my core thesis. "If what you say is true, it should be trivial to provide examples of the opposite, so why don't you?" Republicans have, for instance, supported Voter ID laws consistently, while Democrats have vigorously opposed them. You have…

As has been discussed elsewhere, voter ID does not increase election security whatsoever. Voter fraud is vanishingly rare, and there are systems already in place to detect and mitigate it without requiring everyone to go out and buy IDs.

Democrats only opposed to Voter ID as long as IDs cost money to get. It is a poll tax, and poll taxes are unconstitutional.

The accusation that Voter Id laws hurt minorities is not baseless, it is literally the intent of these laws. Communications that were revealed during the discovery phase of the NC Voter ID suit show that NC Republican legislators commissioned studies to discover what forms of IDs are disproportionately relied on by black people and poor people, like welfare cards, military IDs, student IDs, employee IDs, etc. so that they can be excluded from voting with them.

Know what actually does increase election security and auditability? Paper backups, which Republicans in Congress are unanimously opposed to.

Re: They think they are above the law: the firms who own America's voting system

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To clarify, all references to "Democrats" in my comment above are to Dem politicians, not necessarily their supporters. If I could vote, I'd vote for Dems myself, and to the extent that I can participate in politics by supporting political campaigns, I exclusively support Dem candidates of the more progressive variety. > If you are you unhappy with forms of identification accepted to be issued a ballot, then you shou…

> why aren't Democrats doing that? Because universal federal ID is unpopular and also potentially constitutionally problematic. Then Social Security numbers were introduced, there was a lot of opposition that had to be overcome, including two supreme court challenges that were decided by one vote. Whenever Republicans propose voter ID and Democrats attach universal ID to make it equitable, the bill dies because unive…

Can you give an example of a bill where Dems attached a universal free federal ID rider? I haven't heard of that before, and would like to research more. Most complaints about universal IDs in US are about a hypothetical mandatory ID, but you don't need it to be mandatory in this case; just make it available free to any citizen that requests one. So I'm curious if Dems added a mandatory clause there, or if not, then how did Repubs justified voting against.

(Side note: I'm not opposed to a mandatory federal ID, personally. Given the existence of SSN, driver licenses etc, it's just codifying the status quo in a way that allows it to be implemented far more efficiently. If the feds are going to track me anyway, I'd rather them at least use that information to provide services to me in a more efficient way.)

As far as guns, for starters, it's a right to keep and bear arms, so we have to talk about licenses to carry as well, not just licenses to possess. These licenses aren't free in any state that has them, and can be extremely expensive in some, to the point of hundreds of dollars. And note that handguns in particular are the one type of firearms that was specifically cited as protected in Heller, so this can't be justified on the grounds that they're somehow exotic and outside of the scope of 2A.

But there are also jurisdictions where mere possession requires a license - for example, FOID in Illinois, or the NYC permits. Those apply to long guns as well. And they also come with fees - in NYC, you have to pay $140 just to make an application, and then another $90 on top of that for fingerprinting, just to own a long gun.

Then there are indirect fees imposed by various requirements. For example, most states with universal background checks implement them by requiring an FFL transfer with the usual NICS gate. But those are carried out by private dealers, who charge essentially arbitrary fees for them. Most laws do not set any limits on those fees. And since the check is mandatory, there's no way to avoid them, effectively requiring paying money to exercise the right to own. (There's some obvious irony here in those laws effectively subsidizing local gun stores, by letting them get a cut on every private sale, but it's a separate issue.) Same thing with mandatory training.

To be clear, I don't think that universal background checks or carry permits are bad, or even that licenses to possess are bad. As a gun collector, I'd actually personally prefer license to possess to the current NICS arrangement - it would certainly make my life easier! - and it's also more efficient at enforcement. The point, rather, is that charging for those checks and permits amounts to limiting a constitutionally protected right only to those who can pay for it, effectively turning it into a privilege. And in that regard, it is very similar to a poll tax, and I can't see how one can be opposed without opposing the other on the same grounds. I oppose both, and other similar arrangements (e.g. funding the justice system via court fees).

Re: They think they are above the law: the firms who own America's voting system

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To clarify, all references to "Democrats" in my comment above are to Dem politicians, not necessarily their supporters. If I could vote, I'd vote for Dems myself, and to the extent that I can participate in politics by supporting political campaigns, I exclusively support Dem candidates of the more progressive variety. > If you are you unhappy with forms of identification accepted to be issued a ballot, then you shou…

Americans have conflicted opinions about privacy, security, civil liberties. I, for one, opposed Real ID until I grokked the counterintuitive notion that encrypting demographic data at rest (PII) is only feasible by issuing and using GUIDs. That subtle realization only happened after working on privacy issues for years, and sadly is still difficult to explain to non geeks. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_ID_Act Tr…

Yes, "poll tax" here refers to the narrow US meaning, same as OP.

Why do you consider my point to be trolling? Yes, it's an argument often brought up in discussions of gun rights and reasonable gun regulation (long before this one guy you referenced mentioned it). That's because there's an obvious analogy here. Both are constitutional rights. In both cases, governments effectively do not allow to exercise those rights without paying. And in both cases, the payment isn't connected to any rational objective by the state - if it did, all the fees would be strictly what's necessary to cover the administrative costs to issue them. You don't need to be a Republican politician, or even right wing, to reach the conclusion that both are wrong in the same fundamental manner.

In fact, it's a much stronger argument from the left perspective, because it discriminates on economic class, turning 2A a privilege for the rich. And it might surprise you, but there are actually quite a few pro-gun people on the left who genuinely care about such things. You just don't hear about it much, because the media spotlight is always on NRA and co, which oblige by providing plenty of extreme right-wing red meat for the headlines. If you go by those headlines, it's not surprising to feel like the right owns the topic entirely - but this ignores groups like NAAGA, Black Women's Defense League, Liberal Gun Club, Pink Pistols, SRA, Redneck Revolt etc.

I also have to note that, while the 24th Amendment did ban poll taxes for federal elections, it didn't apply to state elections. It was a separate SCOTUS ruling that banned them there as well, and they reached that conclusion from the 14th Amendment alone, without referencing 24A at all. On the other hand, there's Murdock v. Pennsylvania, which specifically said that "a state may not impose a charge for the enjoyment of a right granted by the Federal Constitution" - the case itself was about freedom of religion under 1A, but the principle is obviously more broad than that.

But supposing that such protections do require an explicit amendment to implement - if you agree that 24A was a necessary amendment with a good rationale behind it, why would the same rationale not apply to other protected rights in principle, regardless of the current inconsistent state of affairs in practice?

Re: They think they are above the law: the firms who own America's voting system

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need to tamper with them.

It’s hard to destroy a large amount of them and get away with it too for the exact same reasons.

You don't need to destroy a large amount.

Re: They think they are above the law: the firms who own America's voting system

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And... Take it to it's logical conclusion.

If your point is that you'll eventually go to jail, after many years of warnings and chances to pay, I don't have an issue with this. There are many actions we require of citizens. You have to pay your taxes, you have to show up for jury duty, you have to sign up for the draft. Why is showing up to vote a less important civic responsibility than any of those things?

Not many. It's only a few, you could add duty to assist depending on where you live.

Would you be forced vote in jail too? What about other people in jail?

The point is it leads to logical absurdity. This is just one. Is silent protest to be criminalized?

Post reply on HN