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They think they are above the law: the firms who own America's voting system

theguardian.com

171–180 of 200 posts

Re: They think they are above the law: the firms who own America's voting system

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fantastic. Now explain how that works to non-programmers. You may not hand-wave, you may not ask them to trust a black box, and they must truly understand and trust your system. And then you can compare that explanation to the explanation for paper ballots, envelopes, and voting urns. The public's trust in a voting system is a very important feature of that voting system. That the public can participate in voting is…

You are requesting new requirements that are not part of the voting system currently in use. I currently have to trust a black box whose inner functions are hand-waved away such that I cannot understand it even if I wanted to. Established systems of voting have equally established attack vectors. If someone cannot understand what a cryptographic hash function does , even if they don't need to understand how , they ca…

> You are requesting new requirements that are not part of the voting system currently in use.

They are absolutely part of the voting system currently in use.

I strongly suggest that you follow tptacek's advice in the top comment and volunteer as an election worker a couple of times so you get a feel for how the process actually works.

> Someone might go to a hundred HTTPS sites a day, and the security works invisibly to them

Most people have no idea why or how that is more secure than HTTP, they can't tell the difference, they don't need to know the difference. But the biggest difference is that in online banking or whatever, there are humans who can check if something's gone wrong, if your account has been hacked, you can call your bank and ask them what happened, and you can usually trust them to know what's going on and what went wrong, and you'll get your money back. Or not, and then you can sue them. Either way, it's fixable.

Voting has no authority that can fix things if something went wrong. The voters are the authority, which means that all the voters need to understand and trust the entire system for it to be authoritative.

Re: They think they are above the law: the firms who own America's voting system

#172
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would require a constitutional amendment.

Nope! You could easily require states to offer a full week of voting as a minimum, this would also cut down on the tactic of making long lines at voting stations to reduce turn out.

> Nope! You could easily require states to offer a full week of voting as a minimum, this would also cut down on the tactic of making long lines at voting stations to reduce turn out.

How can you do that without an amendment? As I understand it, states are free to choose the methods for elections (which is why there is such variety in the US).

From the whitehouse.gov site:

> Federal elections are administered by state and local governments, although the specifics of how elections are conducted differ between the states. The Constitution and laws of the United States grant the states wide latitude in how they administer elections.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/about-the-white-house/elections-v...

Re: They think they are above the law: the firms who own America's voting system

#173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it’s not. It’s easy to tamper with one ballot, but the level of coordination required to tamper with a large number of them quickly enough trends into the impossible category. Especially if you’re trying to keep such an operation a secret.

You don't need to tamper with them.

It’s hard to destroy a large amount of them and get away with it too for the exact same reasons.

Re: They think they are above the law: the firms who own America's voting system

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same as if you don’t pay your taxes, or you don’t pay your speeding ticket, or any other fine.

And... Take it to it's logical conclusion.

If your point is that you'll eventually go to jail, after many years of warnings and chances to pay, I don't have an issue with this.

There are many actions we require of citizens. You have to pay your taxes, you have to show up for jury duty, you have to sign up for the draft. Why is showing up to vote a less important civic responsibility than any of those things?

Re: They think they are above the law: the firms who own America's voting system

#175
post #111
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why are the Democrats upset about the census not counting "migrants" and going to court to block attempts to make the census only count citizens? You are a bit off on that. The census is supposed to count everyone resident in the US, regardless of citizenship status or legality of their presence here. It's been that way since the Census Act of 1790. (And it does not count US citizens who are not resident in the US,…

None of that matters with regard to what I said. Probably none of it matters with regard to what is really going on, either. Our job as plebians is to get really distracted arguing about the details of the various fig leaves and whose fig leaves are better, but that's all they really are. I don't see any reason to care about them any more than our political class (really) does.

This is a non sequitur response to an informed and interesting comment, which 'tzs clearly took pains to compose and which addresses in detail the claim you made above. You'd have been better off not commenting at all than writing this.

Re: They think they are above the law: the firms who own America's voting system

#176
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is 100% snark and 100% true, at the same time.

It's really not. The US is (well was...) dominated by a uni-party. They usually only really need to rig primaries.

I think you missed the point. Had HRC become president, she would have likely been impeached (in the House, not Senate) over emails. We have a criminal in office now who has made it 2 years without impeachment.

There are two parties are a double standard. If the Republicans thought votes were being stolen by Democrats, there would be swift and strong action.

Re: They think they are above the law: the firms who own America's voting system

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No Democrat any where opposes properly identifying voters. One's identity and eligibility to vote is verified upon registration. One's identity is confirmed when being issued a ballot. The current system works so well, until recently [1], that there have been very few cases of voter or registration fraud. If you are you unhappy with forms of identification accepted to be issued a ballot, then you should advocate that…

To clarify, all references to "Democrats" in my comment above are to Dem politicians, not necessarily their supporters. If I could vote, I'd vote for Dems myself, and to the extent that I can participate in politics by supporting political campaigns, I exclusively support Dem candidates of the more progressive variety. > If you are you unhappy with forms of identification accepted to be issued a ballot, then you shou…

> why aren't Democrats doing that?

Because universal federal ID is unpopular and also potentially constitutionally problematic. Then Social Security numbers were introduced, there was a lot of opposition that had to be overcome, including two supreme court challenges that were decided by one vote. Whenever Republicans propose voter ID and Democrats attach universal ID to make it equitable, the bill dies because universal ID is a sticky topic.

> Do you feel the same way with respect to other rights, though? For example, with respect to various licensing and permitting schemes on gun ownership and carry?

There are no such schemes in the United States. Anyone over the age of 18 can buy a gun in all 50 states unless disenfranchised by some other action, like a felony conviction. Some types of guns and some types of carry require special licenses, like concealment and handguns, but there is no general-purpose "gun license": you can always buy long arms for better or worse.

Re: They think they are above the law: the firms who own America's voting system

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are requesting new requirements that are not part of the voting system currently in use. I currently have to trust a black box whose inner functions are hand-waved away such that I cannot understand it even if I wanted to. Established systems of voting have equally established attack vectors. If someone cannot understand what a cryptographic hash function does , even if they don't need to understand how , they ca…

> You are requesting new requirements that are not part of the voting system currently in use. They are absolutely part of the voting system currently in use. I strongly suggest that you follow tptacek's advice in the top comment and volunteer as an election worker a couple of times so you get a feel for how the process actually works. > Someone might go to a hundred HTTPS sites a day, and the security works invisibl…

You have suggested that I don't know how my voting process "actually works", and that I cannot know that without volunteering to help run an election. I do not agree with your premises. Furthermore, that's an ad hominem argument.

The black box I am referring to specifically is the optical scan vote tabulator machine that sits between me and the ballot box, in my current polling place. I have seen it multiple times, and examined it to the extent that I am able. When I lived elsewhere, there were different machines. Every one of them has been a black box to the voting public.

I very explicitly do not trust those machines, because I know how the grey boxes that build the black boxes typically work. The publicly available information about them does not inspire trust. They are defective by design, and stink of corruption.

Some places do have trustworthy elections, using publicly-observable hand-counted paper ballots, like in Minnesota; or slightly less trustworthy vote-by-mail for everyone, like in Oregon. Good for them. I have never voted in those places. Bad for me.

And voting does have an authority that can "fix" things. It's usually the secretary of state for the state, then the supreme courts for that state and for the US. I remember when the SCotUS threw the PotUS election to GW Bush by interfering in Florida's lawful elections process. They didn't back up the voters' authority in that instance. I have felt the frustration of statewide elections where I had a sense that someone was dicking with the results, and there was nothing I could do about it without putting so much effort in that I'd be turning elections activism into an expensive, thankless hobby.

I have zero trust in the current US elections process, and never believed that my vote actually counted for anything. I honestly don't know why I keep voting--gesture of defiance, maybe. I think the voting systems in every place I have voted have all been broken, from the enabling legislation all the way down to local procedures at the polling place. First-past-the-post is broken mathematically. Ballot access laws are cheating. Gerrymandered district boundaries are cheating. Restricted primary voting is cheating.

I can't do anything to fix the systemic flaws without spending 20 years becoming the controlling authority of a single-issue political bloc and fundraising it all the way to actual significance, but encryption math and open, publicly-auditable software is a lot less work, and could still help with the local procedures. Of course, we'd also need a trustworthy compiler that can produce bitwise-identical binaries of different machines, and a trustworthy computer to run the compiler on, and some way for the public to verify that the software running during the election is the same software that was compiled at the public ceremony. And then also assume that an attack on integrity might still succeed, and proceed under the assumption that the system is compromised, whether by intentional act or accidental mistake, by auditing the final results in a non-predictable way.

Buuuuuut... it's not really my job to restore trust in the system. That's up to the ones profiting from it. I have named a system that I, personally, could possibly trust. But it will probably not be adopted, because the trust comes from the tamper-resistance, and elections tampering is a feature desired by those currently holding elected office. In my estimation, voting in the US won't be fixed within the next 5 years, because there is currently profit to be taken by keeping it broken.

Re: They think they are above the law: the firms who own America's voting system

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And... Take it to it's logical conclusion.

If your point is that you'll eventually go to jail, after many years of warnings and chances to pay, I don't have an issue with this. There are many actions we require of citizens. You have to pay your taxes, you have to show up for jury duty, you have to sign up for the draft. Why is showing up to vote a less important civic responsibility than any of those things?

> If your point is that you'll eventually go to jail, after many years of warnings and chances to pay

This may be the case in principle, but in practice I actually don't think this is enforced here in Australia.

Last time I neglected to vote in local government elections (because I legitimately didn't know they were on), I got a letter seeking an explanation, then a $20-ish fine, then no further correspondence and no credit record strike or any further consequences. (I think that may have been because The Greens won that election and they weren't interested in chasing people over tiny fines).

Here's a story of what happened to someone who didn't vote in the last federal election: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-08-08/what-happens-when-you...

And yes I get that if after multiple court summonses and defiant refusals to appear or pay, you could theoretically end up being hauled off to jail, but I don't think this has ever happened in Australia.

I can imagine a magistrate just ending up rolling their eyes and saying "oh fine, go away".

But the "compulsoriness" of voting here does mean that more people pay attention and take politics seriously, and politicians have to try address the needs of the entire population and not play games relating to people's willingness or ability to vote.

That said, it is not compulsory to lodge a valid vote, and drawing genitalia on the ballot paper is a socially acceptable form of voting.

Re: They think they are above the law: the firms who own America's voting system

#180
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a Uniparty issue. There's several issues in the US that are always proposed by the minority party and blocked by the majority party. The reason is that neither party wants them, but both see an advantage in calling for them while in the minority.

The 2016 Democratic platform included a resolution for constitutional amendment to undo Citizens United in the first 90 days, do you think they were hoping to lose? I provided a bunch of evidence over two decades of Democrats uniformly supporting election reform, and Republicans uniformly opposing. If what you say is true, it should be trivial to provide examples of the opposite, so why don't you?

"Citizens United in the first 90 days, do you think they were hoping to lose?"

The Democrats believe Citizens United hurts them and benefits Republicans. It does not challenge my core thesis.

"If what you say is true, it should be trivial to provide examples of the opposite, so why don't you?"

Republicans have, for instance, supported Voter ID laws consistently, while Democrats have vigorously opposed them.

You have two basic choices here. You can either agree this is an example of the Republicans attempting to improve voter security. Or, you can repeat the standard accusations that Voter ID laws are simply intended to hurt minorities and suppress their votes, in which case you're basically agreeing with my thesis that the party's interests in these matters are driven by their interests rather than their stated principles.

(The idea that voter ID is some sort of unmitigated atrocity is a peculiarly American one not shared by the rest of the world, which is why I infer it's a political position and not a logical one.)

If, of course, you attribute to the Democrats all their stated reasons and goals, but every time the Republicans open their mouths they're lying every possible way and have every possible bad motive, of course you'll end up with the result that the Democrats are just awesomesauce and the Republicans stink, but it's not an interesting result. The conclusion is entirely described by the measurement metric. At least if I apply an action-based interests-driven theory equally to both parties, I end up with a potentially-consistent result. And in the scientific sense, I can tell you, it's a very highly predictive theory. I sit up and take notice when a political party makes what lawyers would call an against-interest admission, because it does not happen often.

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