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Changes to Models S and X allow them to travel longer without larger batteries

tesla.com

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Re: Changes to Models S and X allow them to travel longer without larger batteries

#461

Post by prolepunk »

windexh8er wrote: post #318
quanticle wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They break at much much lower rates, because they have many fewer parts. EVs don't have the pistons, valves, belts, fans, compressors, alternators, spark plugs, etc that gasoline engines have. There's probably order of magnitude fewer parts to break. Having seen the interior of an automatic gearbox, the surprising thing to me is that conventional automobiles are as reliable as they are.

> There's probably order of magnitude fewer parts to break. According to Tesla a comparative ICE drivetrain will have around 200 moving parts, while one of their vehicles will have roughly 17. The real upside is longevity. While it is a miraculous feat that machines, such as transmissions, last as long as they do today - they're not needed in electric vehicles. I think it's fair to assume we all expect 100k miles and…

This assumes that Tesla would allow repairs on their cars, which so far not been the case.

I'm not stating that other manufacturers would not allow repairs, but that Tesla has been particularly hostile to people who like working on their cars.

Re: Changes to Models S and X allow them to travel longer without larger batteries

#462

Post by prolepunk »

georgerobinson wrote: post #303
brownbat wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oil changes belong in here somewhere too. I'm not sure if oil changes are the biggest source of profit, but they probably are the highest volume service. And those get customers in the shop for generally unnecessary upsells (like pumping cleaner into the climate control system to "flush" it? that is a scam, right?). Marketplace's analysis: https://www.marketplace.org/2017/08/24/sustainability/whats-... If anything, p…

It's interesting that a lot of readers here and websites in the U.S are saying oil changes every 3,000 or 5,000 miles. This is absolutely not the case in Europe where most cars are on 10,000 or 20,000 mile intervals. I wonder if this is due to much more diverse weather and temperatures you see in the U.S throughout the year and so different grades of oil are required that degrade much faster.

I think you mixed up the units here.

In us oil changes are 3k-5k miles. which is ~5k km to ~8k km whereas in Europe it's 10k to 20k.

I find 8k-10k figure to be close enough and realistic.

5k km for old cars with non-synthetic oil.

20k km I highly suspect is a pipe dream from BMW marketing material ensuring that after about 120k the car would have no resale value.

Re: Changes to Models S and X allow them to travel longer without larger batteries

#463

Post by codeulike »

Brakenshire wrote: post #457
_ea1k wrote: post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Audi chooses to limit charging thresholds to preserve battery life and your conclusion is that they must have a rapidly degrading battery pack? I mean, that would be a weird reason to limit it, but every other reason is weird too. 12% degradation over 100k miles would be pretty high. They've started with 12% degradation from the factory by design in order to avoid it! I can't think of a good reason for this, tbh.

I suspect they desperately want to avoid further scandal, especially with electric cars because these are supposed to be turning over a new leaf after dieselgate. They're not sure exactly how well battery thermal management will work, so they choose a strict limit. I suppose if they find there isn't a problem they could relax it OTA. No-one complains if they get more later, only if they get less.

That is quite a good theory.

Re: Changes to Models S and X allow them to travel longer without larger batteries

#464

Post by windexh8er »

logifail wrote: post #455
windexh8er wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's probably order of magnitude fewer parts to break. According to Tesla a comparative ICE drivetrain will have around 200 moving parts, while one of their vehicles will have roughly 17. The real upside is longevity. While it is a miraculous feat that machines, such as transmissions, last as long as they do today - they're not needed in electric vehicles. I think it's fair to assume we all expect 100k miles and…

> The major failure components will be batteries and electric motors. However the former can be considered a wear item and is, generally easy, to replace Are there "wear items" in ICE vehicles that cost anything like as much as replacing the batteries in an EV?

A battery in an BEV has no direct counterpart in an ICE vehicle. However it most closes aligns as critical to the power train. Any major repairs or replacement of power train components can be comparable depending on the component and labor. Batteries can, like engines and transmissions, be recycled and so costs of replacement today are likely closer to peak than 5-10 years out. Batteries have also proven they last well over 200k miles with less degradation than originally thought [0].

The standard length of operation of a gas ICE doesn't compete with electric, even early in the stage of BEV.

[0] https://electrek.co/2016/11/01/tesla-battery-degradation/

Re: Changes to Models S and X allow them to travel longer without larger batteries

#465

Post by mjamesaustin »

kmlx wrote: post #443
cogman10 wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the last investors meeting, battery production is what Elon said is the main bottleneck at this time for model 3s. AFAIK, all the others are going to get their batteries from third party vendors (except maybe Nissan?). That is going to cause a cost for everyone but Tesla.

isn’t Panasonic the ones that provide all of the batteries that end up in Teslas? my understanding is that Panasonic has been losing money so they’ve started scaling back production. which lead to Musk taking shots at them.

Panasonic isn't scaling back production. Tesla is the one who refused to approve additional scaling up because Panasonic hasn't been able to reach the promised production rate with their existing capacity.

Re: Changes to Models S and X allow them to travel longer without larger batteries

#466

Post by crushcrashcrush »

fumar wrote: post #456
woodpanel wrote: post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good point. Having driven Model S/X/3'es as well as an e-tron and i-pace I can absolutely echo your statement. Teslas offer a different USP than E-Tron/I-Pace alikes. It's EV vs. Premium-Cars that happen to be EVs. If you've never owned a (premium) car and thus have no feeling for differences in interior- and general-manufacturing-quality, a Tesla is the reasonable choice (it even maybe that an Audi's interior will c…

I have a VW Golf R and test drove a Tesla M3 last week. I had set my expectations ahead of time but I was still let down by the interior quality of the vehicle. German auto companies have a great understanding of what makes a car feel like higher quality. It is a mix of design, materials, fit, usability, and sound. VW group, Mercedes Benz, and BMW spend considerable amount of money refining the user experience. Tesla…

I agree here. I’ve owned 6 Audi’s, one Lexus and a Jaguar and the interior quality/attention to detail in the Tesla is really sub-par.

Re: Changes to Models S and X allow them to travel longer without larger batteries

#467

Post by mjamesaustin »

prolepunk wrote: post #458
logifail wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> EVs don't have the pistons, valves, belts, fans, compressors, alternators, spark plugs, etc that gasoline engines have. There's probably order of magnitude fewer parts to break. If you buy a new ICE powered vehicle, how many of any of the parts you mention would one expect to replace in - for instance - the first three years of the vehicles' life? Our experience is that the first few years of a ICE vehicle's life i…

The average age of the vehicle on the road in the US is about 10 years. Not everyone buys brand new cars, and after a few years things start to break. Although from my experience things not related to drivetrain break: * Suspension * Brakes * Steering rack. As these components handle the most peak force.

Brakes in an EV pretty much never need to be replaced, because most of the braking is regenerative and doesn't wear the pads at all.

Re: Changes to Models S and X allow them to travel longer without larger batteries

#468

Post by hn_throwaway_99 »

rsync wrote: post #445
sidcool wrote: post #79

What is super cool about Tesla is their laser sharp focus on creating a good electric vehicle. From the autonomy announcement and then this one, they are creating tools purpose built for cars, like new chips for self driving, battery tech etc. They have done so much in so little time, we have come to expect more from them. There is only so much a car company can innovate, Tesla has gone beyond it. Edit: I am a Tesla…

"What is super cool about Tesla is their laser sharp focus on creating a good electric vehicle. From the autonomy announcement and then this one, they are creating tools purpose built for cars, like new chips for self driving, battery tech etc." That's interesting that you cite that because I wish that Tesla would just focus on electric cars . Instead I see them wasting all manner of time, energy and goodwill on auto…

> What is super cool about Tesla is their laser sharp focus on creating a good electric vehicle.

And don't forget leaf blowers!

Re: Changes to Models S and X allow them to travel longer without larger batteries

#470

Post by jshowa3 »

codeulike wrote: post #244

Compare to the Audi e-Tron, which has a fairly massive 95kWH battery but only scores 204 miles of EPA range. They claim they're only using 88% of the battery capacity so that charging is faster and battery longevity is preserved, but thats a really weird engineering decision that belies the fact they have made a terribly inefficient (and perhaps rapidly degrading?) battery pack/drivetrain. Meanwhile the base Model S,…

Funny thing is, I have a fighting chance of getting my car back within less than a week for repair if I take it to any of the 100's of dealerships available for non-Tesla vehicles.

Try doing that with a Tesla.

Tesla is struggling just as much as the other automotive companies. They just don't show it.

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