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Why don't we have Wayland on Raspberry Pi yet? (2018)

joshondesign.com

211–220 of 259 posts

Re: Why don't we have Wayland on Raspberry Pi yet? (2018)

#211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

X is good enough for majority of the users, even if the architecture is not perfect.

Screen tearing, bad performance, bad touchscreen support (not independent of mouse cursor), and especially important these days: no real HiDPI support (practically impossible to support different scales for different monitors). It's not good enough.

There is no tearing with proper drivers and window managers. This was a problem in the past, but now is largely overstated.

Re: Why don't we have Wayland on Raspberry Pi yet? (2018)

#212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that X11 isn't doing something so right -- it's still terrible, and it always has been, and we knew it was terrible at the time it was standardized. But it's funny that you would bring up something as terrible as a shell scripting language like bash to compare to how terrible X-Windows is. Have you ever read through a gnu configure file yourself, or do you just close your eyes and type "./configure"? Who in th…

Shell scripting languages generally make certain common tasks easy that most other scripting languages do not. Namely, process management and especially piping information through those processes. If that's most of what a program is doing I would 10000 times rather read a script written in bash doing it than a python script that pulls in 800 dependencies just to get halfway to making these sorts of tasks take less th…

I'm curious.

How do you for example parse command line arguments in your shell scripts?

Do you regard sed, grep and awk as dependencies when bash scripting?

With regards Python. The subprocess, os, sys etc modules are standard library modules. There is no dependency overhead in using them. Most smaller Python scripts manage very nicely with the standard library.

Re: Why don't we have Wayland on Raspberry Pi yet? (2018)

#213
post #204
post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What has become great? E.g. has NeXT / macOS graphics system become great? (Yes, I dislike macOS for its lack of customizability and being opinionated. It may be great for someone, but not for me.)

For toolkit consistency I think macos is one of the best. consistency = 1/customizability and I agree with you there, especially annoying for folks who know their way around a computer. For 3d acceleration windows seems to have the most advanced and high performance graphics that is in wide use.

consistency * customizability = 1

Re: Why don't we have Wayland on Raspberry Pi yet? (2018)

#214

Woah - a huge flash to the past when I read this. I ported Wayland to VideoCore4 (the multimedia engine in first Pi chip) back in 2011 - it was part of the Meltemi Nokia project that got cancelled the follow year - shame as it was pretty cool and had half a chance IMO. We worked with the team in Oslo on QT acceleration over GL ES and used EGL below Wayland (coupled with some magic APIs to get the VideoCore HVS to wor…

If you connected with Eric Anhold and worked on this, you would help millions of Pi students and users. It is an opportunity.

Re: Why don't we have Wayland on Raspberry Pi yet? (2018)

#215
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Qt Widgets is an amazing library, but honestly it is both more and less featureful than it needs to be in various cases. The rich text document stuff still holds up OK for basic cases, but I think the text rendering story could be a bit better. Last time I was doing low level text stuff in Qt, performance was not super impressive, and some of the APIs left a bit to be desired.

Well said. The notion that Qt widgets are "finished" was just an aspiration not to spend much more money on it I think; they sort of rowed back on this when it became apparent that Qt Quick isn't always appropriate, but by then it had sort of spread around as a "Qt fact" amongst people who didn't actually use it. The number of rough edges, missing bits and outright bugs mean that it's certainly not "finished"... just…

They helped spread the rummor when plenty of new features are QML only, specially when targeting non-desktop devices.

To this day if you want a common file dialog that works properly across all Qt deployment targets, you need to use QML, as the Widgets version is not adaptive and will display a tiny desktop common file dialog on an LCD display, for example.

Re: Why don't we have Wayland on Raspberry Pi yet? (2018)

#216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that X11 isn't doing something so right -- it's still terrible, and it always has been, and we knew it was terrible at the time it was standardized. But it's funny that you would bring up something as terrible as a shell scripting language like bash to compare to how terrible X-Windows is. Have you ever read through a gnu configure file yourself, or do you just close your eyes and type "./configure"? Who in th…

Shell scripting languages generally make certain common tasks easy that most other scripting languages do not. Namely, process management and especially piping information through those processes. If that's most of what a program is doing I would 10000 times rather read a script written in bash doing it than a python script that pulls in 800 dependencies just to get halfway to making these sorts of tasks take less th…

For the kind of thing you've just described, a Python script would need just one dependency to do it all in roughly the same number of lines:

https://amoffat.github.io/sh/

Re: Why don't we have Wayland on Raspberry Pi yet? (2018)

#217
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that X11 isn't doing something so right -- it's still terrible, and it always has been, and we knew it was terrible at the time it was standardized. But it's funny that you would bring up something as terrible as a shell scripting language like bash to compare to how terrible X-Windows is. Have you ever read through a gnu configure file yourself, or do you just close your eyes and type "./configure"? Who in th…

> as terrible as a shell scripting language That's a strong opinion. I'm not going to argue for lack of time, but suffice to say that 99% of my interactions with my computer and sometimes with my phone is with a shell scripting language. Shell scripting is awesome. > Have you ever read through a gnu configure file yourself, Yes. Generated scripts make for a boring read. > or do you just close your eyes and type "./co…

> Each language is good for different reasons. Shell languages are meant primarily to be used interactively, as opposed to languages like python or ruby. The fact that you can put your everyday interactions in a file and run that is an added bonus.

While UNIX was playing with sh, there were already platforms with REPLs, graphical displays and integrated debugger.

In fact Jupiter Notebooks are an approximation of that experience.

So give me a REPL with function composition and structured data, over pipes and parsing text for the nth time.

Thankfully PowerShell now works across all platforms that matter to me.

Re: Why don't we have Wayland on Raspberry Pi yet? (2018)

#218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure there is, starting with the difficulty in setting up, getting it to output the correct resolution with your monitor, correct refresh rate, etc..

this hasn't been an issue in almost 20 years.

How many distros will install e.g. the proprietary (i.e. covering most recent hardware) NVidia drivers out of the box? If I remember correctly, Ubuntu only just now started doing this.

Re: Why don't we have Wayland on Raspberry Pi yet? (2018)

#219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure there is, starting with the difficulty in setting up, getting it to output the correct resolution with your monitor, correct refresh rate, etc..

this hasn't been an issue in almost 20 years.

Yet my open source AMD driver doesn't do everything that the deprecated fxglr was capable of, and even less than the DirectX 11 version of it.

Re: Why don't we have Wayland on Raspberry Pi yet? (2018)

#220
I had a full Plasma Wayland session running on AArch64 RPi in mid 2016, so this is just wrong.

The only issue is that the Raspbian downstream kernel and broadcom's proprietary userspace drivers are a pretty big mess and not compatible with anything.

When not using any of them, you get a much better experience with software compatibility.

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