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Rich countries tend to have a bigger middle-class, except the USA

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Re: Rich countries tend to have a bigger middle-class, except the USA

#131

Post by thatfrenchguy »

rayiner wrote: post #127
runako wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You obviously know this, but for those who are not familiar with America, regarding #2 above, the experience in the US is vastly different from other rich countries. > The lower threshold for the U.S. is $23,416 PPP-adjusted 2010 dollars per year. A person that makes this in the US usually will not receive health insurance at work. Depending on the specifics of the person's demographics/state/income, a worker at the…

That is true, but that's also only one side of the story. Statistically, most people won't need to use the safety net. And while Americans have less security, they also enjoy a substantially higher level of material comfort. Americans have more/newer cars, live in bigger houses, etc. https://www.businessinsider.com/ons-english-homes-are-a-thir... Now, I think it would be better to have more of a safety net and less i…

> Statistically, most people won't need to use the safety net

As a person, you'll around 100% likely to the doctor. In any Western Europe country, you don't have to think about it. In the US, you either think about it because of your copay or your don't go because you don't have money.

Re: Rich countries tend to have a bigger middle-class, except the USA

#132

Post by mbesto »

naravara wrote: post #66
mbesto wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Conversely, it's also what has attracted so many immigrants to America and created so much historic social mobility[0]. Note - I believe this has largely been reversed (and thus stagnated) due to a generation of "I got mine" attitudes, aka the Baby Boomers. [0]Example - in the UK there is very much a "these are the cards I've been dealt" attitude towards social mobility.

>Conversely, it's also what has attracted so many immigrants to America and created so much historic social mobility[0]. Note - I believe this has largely been reversed (and thus stagnated) due to a generation of "I got mine" attitudes, aka the Baby Boomers. It's not "I got mine" attitude nearly as much as it is plain racism. As a block, White Americans preferred to shred social services rather than extending the umb…

Not to marginalize the severity of racism in the USA, but blaming it on "plain racism" is a bit myopic. The "I got mine" attitude that I'm referring to involves mainly white American boomers who created/supported NIMBY legislation and inappropriate higher education funding that has effectively lead to the limitations for younger white American social mobility as well.

Re: Rich countries tend to have a bigger middle-class, except the USA

#133

Post by rukittenme »

padobson wrote: post #104
return1 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is the case https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/09/06/the-america...

Wow. According to that first chart, the middle class has shrunk 10% since 1971, with the upper class getting 5% larger and the lower class getting 5% larger.

Consider the number of retirees on fixed incomes in 1971 versus 2016. The US is getting wealthier and older.

Re: Rich countries tend to have a bigger middle-class, except the USA

#134

Post by jimrhods23 »

yardie wrote: post #32

In all my travels no one is more deluded about the middle class than in the US. Healthcare is cheaper in Europe therefore it must be worse, somehow. The government is completely dysfunctional and we are worse off for it. Rather than pay slightly more to fully fund a working city/state/federal government everyone would rather pay slightly less and have a government that can't work at all. Then, complain about the fact…

"In all my travels no one is more deluded about the middle class than in the US. Healthcare is cheaper in Europe"

Cheaper != better. Especially when it comes to something as important as healthcare. It also depends on what you are prioritizing. Universal care is good for checkups and when you are young and healthy. But it falls apart when you need major surgery due to much longer wait times and decisions made by a committee. It also makes it almost impossible to get private care, unless you are wealthy.

"Yes, the DMV sucks, but guess what, that is the level of service voters decided they wanted and that is what the DMV can deliver based on it's funding"

I'm not sure where you are going to the DMV in the US, but it hasn't been called that in about a decade where I live.

It's also very well organized. I can get in line from my state's website and get a text message to come to the office, so I no longer have to sit for 2-3 hours. But, this does depend on the State.

I would also see the actual stats on the middle class in Europe. As taxes get higher, it squeezes out the middle class and you pretty much just have two classes: the very rich and the rest. California is starting to resemble this and most of Europe has been like this for awhile.

Re: Rich countries tend to have a bigger middle-class, except the USA

#135

Post by naravara »

mbesto wrote: post #132
naravara wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Conversely, it's also what has attracted so many immigrants to America and created so much historic social mobility[0]. Note - I believe this has largely been reversed (and thus stagnated) due to a generation of "I got mine" attitudes, aka the Baby Boomers. It's not "I got mine" attitude nearly as much as it is plain racism. As a block, White Americans preferred to shred social services rather than extending the umb…

Not to marginalize the severity of racism in the USA, but blaming it on "plain racism" is a bit myopic. The "I got mine" attitude that I'm referring to involves mainly white American boomers who created/supported NIMBY legislation and inappropriate higher education funding that has effectively lead to the limitations for younger white American social mobility as well.

Even a lot of that NIMBYism is focused on making sure the "wrong kinds of people" don't move into the neighborhood. People have complained about public transit because they don't want "those people" being able to get to their neighborhoods, even if it makes life objectively easier for them to not be dependent on a car. Even our school districts have functionally been racially segregated by how district lines are drawn and property taxes are assessed.

It's hard not to understate the extent to which racism permeates the policy frameworks we operate under in the US. It's very deeply embedded to the point where many of its effects are invisible.

Re: Rich countries tend to have a bigger middle-class, except the USA

#136

Post by munk-a »

matwood wrote: post #117
munk-a wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was once sort of the truth for the US, when everyone in the world owed America immense amounts of money after WWII and the US was paying _heavily_ into education. That's ended. The US is now becoming stupid politically and, even worse for the populace, uncompetitive - that "American Innovation" is dead and it ain't coming back for at least thirty or forty years unless education gets a serious booster shot. This…

On a per pupil basis, the US is near the top in spending. The problem is that money does not make it into teacher salaries or even into the classrooms. Like many other parts of the US government, the money gets wasted away in administration. This also is not a new thing. When I was in high school years ago, quite a few school buildings in the county were literally falling down trailers. With that going on, the school…

US education spending is somewhat tied to property taxes[1], Boston in particular has had historically terrible problems with inner city schools being underfunded while the suburbs throw around LCDs and laptops like they're candy - again due to a sort of terrible "the capitalist can do no wrong" ideal in the US a lot of money ends up being wasted by administrators on stupid technology that does nothing to help students learn.

[1] In most places AFAIK, and certainly in all the places I've ever lived

Re: Rich countries tend to have a bigger middle-class, except the USA

#137

Post by j2bax »

potta_coffee wrote: post #109
j2bax wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I lived in NY I felt the same way about the DMV. Here in Canyon County Idaho there are a good 10-15 agents and I've never waited more than a few minutes. Guess we take all the savings from our poor education system and put them into the DMV!

Off topic but what kind of jobs are there in Canyon County?

ehhhh... Simplot (major potato producer/processor). Then there is the Amalgamated Sugar Factory (turns sugar beets into sugar). Outside of that, plenty of service level work. More tech in neighboring Ada county with Micron, HP and a lot of other startups etc.

Re: Rich countries tend to have a bigger middle-class, except the USA

#138

Post by runako »

rayiner wrote: post #127
runako wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You obviously know this, but for those who are not familiar with America, regarding #2 above, the experience in the US is vastly different from other rich countries. > The lower threshold for the U.S. is $23,416 PPP-adjusted 2010 dollars per year. A person that makes this in the US usually will not receive health insurance at work. Depending on the specifics of the person's demographics/state/income, a worker at the…

That is true, but that's also only one side of the story. Statistically, most people won't need to use the safety net. And while Americans have less security, they also enjoy a substantially higher level of material comfort. Americans have more/newer cars, live in bigger houses, etc. https://www.businessinsider.com/ons-english-homes-are-a-thir... Now, I think it would be better to have more of a safety net and less i…

Hard agree with most of this. There's something to the notion that the US (and possibly Canada) should be in a wealth tier beyond other rich countries.

But the security thing is a real thing that affects even people who make good money. American cars/bigger houses/etc. can be transitory because our healthcare system sucks and our education system is too expensive. I wouldn't dismiss these things because there's two generations now that are experiencing all of the insecurity in healthcare & education costs without experiencing the benefits that accrued to prior generations. Our current model may not be sustainable.

(Also & this isn't 100% germane to your argument, but most of the US population is eligible for some part of the safety net at some point. Notably, most infants are eligible for WIC because they are not born to well-off families. Obviously ditto the Social Security & Medicare. It's probably fair to say that most Americans will lean on the safety net at some point in their lives.)

Re: Rich countries tend to have a bigger middle-class, except the USA

#139

Post by ranie93 »

pathseeker wrote: post #125
ranie93 wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And also smaller, that can't be forgotten. Reading this through the lens of income inequality; I don't think having a smaller, yet richer middle class, is necessarily something to be proud of.

Eliminating people at the higher income brackets until the average has lowered enough that you have a large middle class isn't something to be proud of either.

Is it? In the scenario you say we shouldn't be necessarily proud of more people would be economically well-off (e.g. less people choosing between food and rent). Are you sure that wouldn't be something to be proud of?

Re: Rich countries tend to have a bigger middle-class, except the USA

#140

Post by vlunkr »

darksaints wrote: post #78
yardie wrote: post #32

In all my travels no one is more deluded about the middle class than in the US. Healthcare is cheaper in Europe therefore it must be worse, somehow. The government is completely dysfunctional and we are worse off for it. Rather than pay slightly more to fully fund a working city/state/federal government everyone would rather pay slightly less and have a government that can't work at all. Then, complain about the fact…

The alternative view is that most Americans have only ever known one type of government: an incompetent one. We spend more per capita on Medicare than most first world countries spend on their universal health care, but we only cover 15% of the population. We build roads, railroads, pipelines, and other basic infrastructure at 4-10x markup over the costs that other first world countries are paying. We spend more on e…

There are also significant libertarian ideals at play in the US. People don't want to pay the government to control their healthcare, why shouldn't they control that themselves? To say people are just "deluded" is oversimplifying IMO.
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