Amazon Quits China Market • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon Quits China Market

#261

Post by manigandham » Tue, Apr 23, 2019, 6:32 AM UTC

echaozh wrote: post #256

manigandham wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The conversation has drifted. It's not about whether you see a problem. It's just how things are done in China where the government has total control over the market unlike many other countries and the US. Amazon couldn't compete because it was not allowed to compete.

So buying from Airbus instead of Boeing is an act now to allow Boeing to compete? So do you or do I have a wrong understanding of the word "compete"?

You're focusing on a word instead of the discussion.

China allows foreign companies to compete and grow as long as they follow their rules and are in non-critical markets. Amazon was in a critical market and had domestic competition so it was pressured until it left.

Aviation is a critical market so Boeing and Airbus are being carefully controlled to stay soft in favor of the upcoming (state-run) Comac C919 jetliners getting US certified. China is already selling these jets in Asia and they will be the used by all 3 major (state-run) Chinese airlines once ready, eventually pushing out Boeing and Airbus completely.

Re: Amazon Quits China Market

#262

Post by ericfrenkiel » Tue, Apr 23, 2019, 6:36 AM UTC

thetechlead wrote: post #228

seemuch wrote: post #220

The discussion in this thread shows how blind people are about China's development. They are pointing fingers to the Chinese government partly because they simply cannot imagine how much better the China competitors are. The US do have some advantages in the IT industry, but that advantage is getting slimmer and slimmer. In fact, in so many ways, people in China are enjoying much better services from the internet com…

Not just in e-commerce, the convenience living in China has far passed America, such as in mobile payment, food delivery, bike sharing, WeChat with its tremendously useful ecosystem, the subway system, high-speed rails, etc. Having lived in both China and America, I have to say the living standard in Chinese cities has passed America's in many ways and, more importantly, the speed of China building new facilities is…

Per capita GDP and gross GDP easily refute your apologia.

Pro tip: at least try to submit something unrelated to China every now and then, otherwise people may rightly or wrongly call you a troll.

Re: Amazon Quits China Market

#263

Post by ericfrenkiel » Tue, Apr 23, 2019, 6:37 AM UTC

manigandham wrote: post #235

seemuch wrote: post #220

The discussion in this thread shows how blind people are about China's development. They are pointing fingers to the Chinese government partly because they simply cannot imagine how much better the China competitors are. The US do have some advantages in the IT industry, but that advantage is getting slimmer and slimmer. In fact, in so many ways, people in China are enjoying much better services from the internet com…

The China competitors are better because they are actively helped by the government while foreign companies are not, and in this case actively suppressed. Competition only works when the market is fair. Perhaps Amazon could not make as good of an offering but their marketshare was 15% 10 years ago and China is a large, homogenous, and modernized population like the US which is perfect for Amazon's scale strategy. It'…

Well said!

Re: Amazon Quits China Market

#264

Post by bleriot » Tue, Apr 23, 2019, 6:56 AM UTC

seemuch wrote: post #159

I am so sad to see how the comments under this post manifest. People just blindly pointing fingers to the big evil Chinese government for the failure, without any evidence whatsoever. I get it, failures are hard. But you can face it and learn to be responsible for it. All grownups do that. I think American are transitioning from a bunch of doers to a bunch of whiners.

Do you deny that the Chinese government makes it extremely difficult for US companies to operate there?

Re: Amazon Quits China Market

#265

Post by landryraccoon » Tue, Apr 23, 2019, 7:03 AM UTC

ericfrenkiel wrote: post #262

thetechlead wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just in e-commerce, the convenience living in China has far passed America, such as in mobile payment, food delivery, bike sharing, WeChat with its tremendously useful ecosystem, the subway system, high-speed rails, etc. Having lived in both China and America, I have to say the living standard in Chinese cities has passed America's in many ways and, more importantly, the speed of China building new facilities is…

Per capita GDP and gross GDP easily refute your apologia. Pro tip: at least try to submit something unrelated to China every now and then, otherwise people may rightly or wrongly call you a troll.

I'm curious what you think this confidence buys the west. Like, is it actually beneficial to be overconfident? Let's say you're right and he's wrong. The consequence of overestimating China is slight. So, we were a little worried when we didn't have to be.

On the other hand, the consequences for a nation or a business of underestimating China could be catastrophic. It could mean finding your business or nation suddenly cut off by a competitor you didn't plan for. It seems to me that rational self interest alone should bias the west towards overestimating rather than underestimating China.

It almost feels like an anxious insecurity, as if admitting that China might catch up might make it so, when sticking our heads in the sand about the possible threat is way more likely to ensure we are overtaken.

Re: Amazon Quits China Market

#266

Post by tsukurimashou » Tue, Apr 23, 2019, 7:42 AM UTC

manigandham wrote: post #235

seemuch wrote: post #220

The discussion in this thread shows how blind people are about China's development. They are pointing fingers to the Chinese government partly because they simply cannot imagine how much better the China competitors are. The US do have some advantages in the IT industry, but that advantage is getting slimmer and slimmer. In fact, in so many ways, people in China are enjoying much better services from the internet com…

The China competitors are better because they are actively helped by the government while foreign companies are not, and in this case actively suppressed. Competition only works when the market is fair. Perhaps Amazon could not make as good of an offering but their marketshare was 15% 10 years ago and China is a large, homogenous, and modernized population like the US which is perfect for Amazon's scale strategy. It'…

As opposed to US companies that are certainly not helped in any way by the US government

Re: Amazon Quits China Market

#267

Post by manigandham » Tue, Apr 23, 2019, 7:43 AM UTC

tsukurimashou wrote: post #266

manigandham wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The China competitors are better because they are actively helped by the government while foreign companies are not, and in this case actively suppressed. Competition only works when the market is fair. Perhaps Amazon could not make as good of an offering but their marketshare was 15% 10 years ago and China is a large, homogenous, and modernized population like the US which is perfect for Amazon's scale strategy. It'…

As opposed to US companies that are certainly not helped in any way by the US government

Sure, but definitely not to that extent, competitors are certainly not suppressed in the same way, and it's irrelevant to the discussion of why Amazon left China.

Re: Amazon Quits China Market

#268

Post by derda » Tue, Apr 23, 2019, 8:02 AM UTC

hbosch wrote: post #236

paganel wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Amazon has literally won everywhere else in the world I've mentioned it in another comment, too, but Amazon is not present in my Eastern European country (Romania), where Alibaba beats them by a large margin (even though they're also not officially launched here). I've just done a quick search and it seems Amazon is not winning it in Russia either, nor in Ukraine, to say nothing of India. As such, to say that they…

I have heard from friends in Germany that EBay is much preferred to Amazon.de. Perhaps that isn’t the full truth, but something I found interesting.

Also just a personal observation, but I don’t see many people using eBay anymore, maybe for some special niches (for example stuff you would find in a Home Depot is often better to get from ebay since it’s probably to large for amazons fulfillment anyways). But in general everyone here orders everything from amazon (if you look in the back of a delivery van it certainly looks like it). Only in fashion they do a very bad job, there is is Zalando all the way here.

Re: Amazon Quits China Market

#269

Post by EnderMB » Tue, Apr 23, 2019, 8:27 AM UTC

Purely as an outsider looking at the regular China tech posts with interest over the years, it feels like there's a common thread, where US tech giants look at the Chinese market and rub their hands with glee, expecting to simply place an office there and integrate as they do everywhere else, only to find an existing ecosystem they seemingly have no knowledge of - and instead of studying that ecosystem and improving their product globally they bow out when China doesn't seem to be as "easy" as first thought.

Obviously, this is a gross over-simplification of the situation, but it feels weird that FAANG-size tech companies seem to all be making the same mistakes by embedding their services into a packed marketplace and being arrogent enough to expect to beat pre-existing competition. Outsiders may claim (and rightfully so) that China has a bias towards Chinese companies, but this bias doesn't seem to be the reson why the likes of Amazon and Google fail in China.

Re: Amazon Quits China Market

#270

Post by Tsubasachan » Tue, Apr 23, 2019, 8:28 AM UTC

seemuch wrote: post #220

The discussion in this thread shows how blind people are about China's development. They are pointing fingers to the Chinese government partly because they simply cannot imagine how much better the China competitors are. The US do have some advantages in the IT industry, but that advantage is getting slimmer and slimmer. In fact, in so many ways, people in China are enjoying much better services from the internet com…

Yeah I visited a retail expert panel and they were talking about how in the 80s and 90s we looked at the US for trends and now China is the inspiration.

Malls are out apps are in. Its almost scary how fast physical retail is dying.