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China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media

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Re: China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media

#211

Post by Dylan16807 »

ufmace wrote: post #195
Dylan16807 wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Isn't it rather convenient to convince yourself that everyone in your outgroup is intolerant totalitarians That's a pretty extreme strawman. I disagree with lots of outgroups, and I only call a couple of them totalitarians. If someone hates all of the outgroup, they are almost certainly hypocritical and lying to themselves about being tolerant. If someone hates none of the outgroup, we can agree they're virtuous an…

I think we have a disagreement on the definition of the term "outgroup". The article I linked goes into more detail, but I'd say that an outgroup is defined by being the group that you hate, not necessarily just those who are different from you in some way. It doesn't make sense to talk about what percentage of them you hate when it's defined as being the people that you hate. There's no test to determine exactly wha…

If it's defined as the people you hate, then size matters a huge amount. If you only hate and would discriminate against two people, then you're amazingly tolerant.

The paradox of tolerance is not particularly difficult to deal with. You prioritize the preservation of as much tolerance as possible. If someone is trying to reduce the levels of tolerance in the world by a large amount, it's important to fight them, even if it means minor short term intolerance. And even then you tolerate them in all other ways.

Re: China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media

#212

Post by rangibaby »

malshe wrote: post #171
bonoboTP wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPnnHCeRH3w

Thanks for the link. There are tons of comments written in Mandarin so I used Google Translate to see what they are saying. Suprisingly several top rated comments are positive about the ad!

> Suprisingly several top rated comments are positive about the ad!

It's not that surprising, Youtube is blocked in PRC

Re: China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media

#213

Post by throwaway55244 »

SenHeng wrote: post #192
apo wrote: post #40

The Chinese are innovating totalitarianism faster than any other country. Take this, for example: > ... When undergraduate students at Peking University, which was at the center of the incident, were shown copies of the iconic photograph [of Tank Man] 16 years afterwards, they were "genuinely mystified." One of the students said that the image was "artwork." It is noted in the documentary Frontline: The Tank Man that…

Adding some personal anecdata, Singapore has been having a large influx of Chinese students for the past couple of decades and I have spoken with a few who are adamant that Tiananmen is made up because they ‘don’t know anyone who has actually been through it’.

Are you speaking to them in Mandarin or English?

I find when I speak in Mandarin, and in a nonjudgmental manner, they all know about it.

Of course they all say the protest started due to labor reform issues and not because of democracy.

Re: China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media

#214

Post by everdev »

SenHeng wrote: post #192
apo wrote: post #40

The Chinese are innovating totalitarianism faster than any other country. Take this, for example: > ... When undergraduate students at Peking University, which was at the center of the incident, were shown copies of the iconic photograph [of Tank Man] 16 years afterwards, they were "genuinely mystified." One of the students said that the image was "artwork." It is noted in the documentary Frontline: The Tank Man that…

Adding some personal anecdata, Singapore has been having a large influx of Chinese students for the past couple of decades and I have spoken with a few who are adamant that Tiananmen is made up because they ‘don’t know anyone who has actually been through it’.

I bet 10-15 years ago the Tianamen video would be undeniable proof.

But now with deepfakes and other video editing, it wouldn't be that crazy for an average person in China to simply not believe the video was real if their government universally denies it.

Re: China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media

#215

Post by throwaway55244 »

nercht12 wrote: post #160
0815test wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Collectively organize and resist"? That's really not what Chinese politics looks like, either today or in the foreseeable future. It's not just that the vast majority of Chinese are quite apathetic about politics (though they definitely are) - most of them nowadays think the government is actually doing a pretty good job, all things considered. And they're even less inclined to think that rocking the boat in any way…

> It's not just that the vast majority of Chinese are quite apathetic about politics (though they definitely are) What? You have a source on this? Last I checked, people were jumping out of buildings to commit suicide so the gov put nets around the bottom. Things may have gotten better, but they are far from the ideal anyone wants to live in. I think the "apathy" you're referring to is actually "resignation" to the f…

That’s like saying, “the last I checked, Americans were shooting up schools, so there must be something wrong with democracy.”

Personal economic issues aren’t always caused by politics.

Re: China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media

#216

Post by rdtsc »

spectramax wrote: post #20

Powerful ad. My gut feeling is that there will be a day in the future where everything in China is going to boil-over just like any other totalitarian regimes in the past. It could be 20 years from now when Xi dies or some type of student uprising again, or could be from the HK/Taiwan situation. The behavior of the Chinese government and as they call it "the hand of Beijing" has a self-propelling streisand effect, th…

> My gut feeling is that there will be a day in the future where everything in China is going to boil-over just like any other totalitarian regimes in the past.

I think the 1989 incident was such an event. It almost boiled over. But what happened is that regime learned from its mistakes and it learned to control its temperature better i.e. introduced market economy.

They've sort of made this pact with the people "you don't ask us about what happened in 1989, but in exchange you get to participate in world's capitalist economy".

Another sad realization could be that capitalism and democracy don't really have to coexist. It seemed for a while that democracy would follow after enough prosperity and market economy took over. But it hasn't happened in China. And we might be surprised that capitalism might even work better under a totalitarian regime.

Re: China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media

#217

Post by throwaway55244 »

jccalhoun wrote: post #51
spectramax wrote: post #20

Powerful ad. My gut feeling is that there will be a day in the future where everything in China is going to boil-over just like any other totalitarian regimes in the past. It could be 20 years from now when Xi dies or some type of student uprising again, or could be from the HK/Taiwan situation. The behavior of the Chinese government and as they call it "the hand of Beijing" has a self-propelling streisand effect, th…

Honestly, the few times I've tried to bring it up with Chinese students at USA universities they have all been blasé about it. They have all been, "that's just the way it is." That could be because they just don't want to talk about it. Or because they are mostly from rich families and so they really don't care. Or only kids from loyal families are allowed to go to school overseas.

Or perhaps their English isn’t good enough or they think type are trying to lecture them?

Re: China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media

#218

Post by butYouSuck »

wahnfrieden wrote: post #159
gxwmg wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, there's a frog in the west that can also get you in trouble...

As a symbol of racist misogynist hate of marginalized groups, not a statement against a totalitarian leader. What exactly are you comparing?

It's funny because, you frothing at the mouth over it, is really what it's a symbol of. The ability to foster a knee-jerk reaction in people on the prowl for villain that fits their sweet spot.

If you know anything about it, it was just a cartoon that got entangled in a presidential election, and the side that didn't like the cartoon pointed their finger at the cartoon to declare it a symbol of evil. As farcical as that episode was, then it was held up by contrarians as a symbol of that very farce. And only now, is it as divisive as it is.

Strange how bastardization unfolds.

Re: China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media

#219

Post by [deleted] »

jessedhillon wrote: post #162
frostburg wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Leica distancing itself from the ad isn't a good look. The company is not very relevant for actual "working" photographers today (I use one, but tellingly photography isn't a real job for me), but it once was and at the time they stood up to their own homegrown totalitarian regime by helping jews escape Germany disguised as transferring employees.

The ad itself is supposed to be a tribute to photo journalists, highlighting the risks they're prepared to take in pursuit of the truth. I can hardly capture in words how incongruent Leica's actions are with their message.

[deleted]

Re: China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media

#220

Post by mistermann »

wahnfrieden wrote: post #159
gxwmg wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, there's a frog in the west that can also get you in trouble...

As a symbol of racist misogynist hate of marginalized groups, not a statement against a totalitarian leader. What exactly are you comparing?

Perhaps comparing how different cultures dramatically interpret or react to images, and how we often view the behavior of other cultures in this respect to be odd or silly, while our unique behavior is based in rational, fact-based logic. But that's just a guess.

Take your interpretation for example, am I mistaken to conclude that you believe all who post that frog are both misogynist and racist, or did I guess wrong? If so, could you clarify?

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