Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Germans Who Refused to Execute Civilians During World War II (1988) [pdf]

sci-hub.tw

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

31–40 of 112 posts

Re: Germans Who Refused to Execute Civilians During World War II (1988) [pdf]

#31

Post by blattimwind »

Bayart wrote: post #20
blattimwind wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because civilian protections where only added in 1949 to the Geneva Conventions. The Geneva Convention as-of WW2 would only be applicable to PoWs, not civilians.

To be fair I don't think anybody saw systemic violence upon civilians during a war between states (as opposed to a civil one) as a realistic possibility during the inter-war period. It was well outside the customs of war in our corner of the world at that point. The national-social cocktail completely tore apart common decency.

> To be fair I don't think anybody saw systemic violence upon civilians during a war between states (as opposed to a civil one) as a realistic possibility during the inter-war period. It was well outside the customs of war in our corner of the world at that point.

Really? Atrocities against civilians in war were common even then. No need to look further than e.g. the colonies.

Re: Germans Who Refused to Execute Civilians During World War II (1988) [pdf]

#32

Post by d0mine »

muglug wrote: post #28

The Milgram Experiment[1] shows that most people do go along with what an authority figure tells them. It’s one of the more depressing experiments in social psychology. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

As I understand it, it is an optimistic experiment: almost a third of people can think for themselves and won't torture only because they were given an order.

Some of us are not automatons :) https://www.xkcd.com/610/

Re: Germans Who Refused to Execute Civilians During World War II (1988) [pdf]

#33

Post by eru »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #22

I think it's worth noting that the armed forces and the Nazi party itself were not in lock step for the duration of the 3rd Reich. While the SS answered more or less directly to the Nazi party there were certainly individuals throughout the leadership of the armed forces that did not like their resources being used to carry out genocide and or help the SS because they had little interest in that, they wanted to fight…

The relationship between the armed forces and the Nazi party was indeed complex.

Eg the noble officiers didn't like the Nazis' populism. They were however mostly happy to fight a war, especially when it was going well.

Re: Germans Who Refused to Execute Civilians During World War II (1988) [pdf]

#34

Post by Haga »

blattimwind wrote: post #4
HeWhoLurksLate wrote: post #2

Interestingly, the Geneva Convention was barely used at all, and the "excuses" given were mostly based on the politics of the military instead.

That's because civilian protections where only added in 1949 to the Geneva Conventions. The Geneva Convention as-of WW2 would only be applicable to PoWs, not civilians.

Russian pows where murdered by neglect in large numbers

Re: Germans Who Refused to Execute Civilians During World War II (1988) [pdf]

#35

Post by srean »

nabla9 wrote: post #13

The courage to stand up against your own ingroup is the highest form of courage and morals. It requires independence of thought and high principles.

The other one is to acknowledge and believe deeply that your acts were wrong. I cannot think of another country that breathes these values so sincerely and profoundly. I am sure everyone knows that Germany is in no way unique in its killing of millions.

I have no German ties whatsoever but I am in deep admiration of their capacity to accept, correct and be vigilant of repetition.

I know neo-nazism exists. I hope it continues to be an aberration.

Re: Germans Who Refused to Execute Civilians During World War II (1988) [pdf]

#36

Post by yifanl »

ppod wrote: post #27
nabla9 wrote: post #13

The courage to stand up against your own ingroup is the highest form of courage and morals. It requires independence of thought and high principles.

I agree with independence of thought, courage, and high principles, but is it moral? An militant anti-semite in present-day Germany is might be just as independent, principled, and courageous.

(In some views) morals are relative and personal, not absolute.

Re: Germans Who Refused to Execute Civilians During World War II (1988) [pdf]

#37

Post by spamizbad »

DanBC wrote: post #29
muglug wrote: post #28

The Milgram Experiment[1] shows that most people do go along with what an authority figure tells them. It’s one of the more depressing experiments in social psychology. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

The Milgram experiment shows people will role-play if you put them in a role play situation. It doesn't tell you anything about what people do in the real world in real situations.

That’s just not correct.

In the original form of the experiment (and several subsequent replications), the “teacher” was under the impression everything was real and wasn’t aware the “learner” (the person pretending to get shocked) was an actor.

Today, you’d never get an ethics board to approve the experiment in this form, as several former “teachers” were distraught, after being told the true nature of the experiment, because they naturally assumed they’d never be capable of such terrible acts.

There is no evidence to support the view that the “teachers” who administered dangerous shocks were somehow clued into the fact that it was an actor. That would have made the entire experiment worthless, as “Will people pretend to do evil things while role playing?” isn’t an interesting question because thats well understood to be true. Milgram set out specifically to see if every-day people would commit acts that go against their personal conscience if directed to do so by authority.

Re: Germans Who Refused to Execute Civilians During World War II (1988) [pdf]

#38

Post by mannykannot »

DanBC wrote: post #29
muglug wrote: post #28

The Milgram Experiment[1] shows that most people do go along with what an authority figure tells them. It’s one of the more depressing experiments in social psychology. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

The Milgram experiment shows people will role-play if you put them in a role play situation. It doesn't tell you anything about what people do in the real world in real situations.

If the participants thought they were in a real-word situation -- and apparently many did -- then their responses (which were varied) do raise questions about real-world behavior.

Re: Germans Who Refused to Execute Civilians During World War II (1988) [pdf]

#39

Post by ekianjo »

blattimwind wrote: post #31
Bayart wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair I don't think anybody saw systemic violence upon civilians during a war between states (as opposed to a civil one) as a realistic possibility during the inter-war period. It was well outside the customs of war in our corner of the world at that point. The national-social cocktail completely tore apart common decency.

> To be fair I don't think anybody saw systemic violence upon civilians during a war between states (as opposed to a civil one) as a realistic possibility during the inter-war period. It was well outside the customs of war in our corner of the world at that point. Really? Atrocities against civilians in war were common even then. No need to look further than e.g. the colonies.

> Really? Atrocities against civilians in war were common even then. No need to look further than e.g. the colonies.

I think the point was that scale of it was quite different in WW2. In WW2 the majority of casualties were civilians, which was new compared to previous conflicts.

Re: Germans Who Refused to Execute Civilians During World War II (1988) [pdf]

#40

Post by ekianjo »

Haga wrote: post #34
blattimwind wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because civilian protections where only added in 1949 to the Geneva Conventions. The Geneva Convention as-of WW2 would only be applicable to PoWs, not civilians.

Russian pows where murdered by neglect in large numbers

It's true both ways: for the German POWs who were sent to Russia, almost none of them made it back alive.
Post reply on HN