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Germans Who Refused to Execute Civilians During World War II (1988) [pdf]

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Re: Germans Who Refused to Execute Civilians During World War II (1988) [pdf]

#11
post #5

In Dortmund, Germany, on Good Friday, a commemoration ceremony took place in the afternoon at the Bittermark memorial ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahnmal_Bittermark ). 300 POWs and resistance fighters were murdered there just weeks and days before the end of the war. 1700 demonstrators showed up this year. We must not forget.

>1700 demonstrators showed up this year.

Were they demonstrating against or in favor of the POW's and resistence fighters?

Re: Germans Who Refused to Execute Civilians During World War II (1988) [pdf]

#12
post #8
post #6

The last line resonated with me a lot "In every case of documented refusal to obey orders to exterminate people, the coercive powers of the Nazi system proved to be impotent or ineffective." I would have expected the opposite. I guess this means, the structures of society and rule of of law were actually sort of still working, but that most people feared going against the zeitgeist.

In fact, the Nazis had perverted the law and its rule but retained the structure of a lawful state, as chaos and anarchy were pretty much out of fashion in Germany after the 20s. Think of the Nazis as a gang of uneducated mobsters winning some decent hotel in a game of poker. They had to retain the reception, the service personal and the kitchen. But they behave disgustingly at every opportunity.

"Think of the Nazis as a gang of uneducated mobsters"

Only that they were quite educated. Not the lower troops of SA. But the party members were very much into classical education, classical music etc.

And they totally went by law and order. "Just" a different order. With racism as its core fundamentals and the neglect of humanism in general.

Re: Germans Who Refused to Execute Civilians During World War II (1988) [pdf]

#16
post #9

[flagged]

Was this post intended as sarcasm, or did you actually mean to equate the torture of a small number of prisoners with mass executions of millions of civilians?

I never said they were equal. I don't know if anyone was punished for doing it though.

Re: Germans Who Refused to Execute Civilians During World War II (1988) [pdf]

#17
post #8
post #6

The last line resonated with me a lot "In every case of documented refusal to obey orders to exterminate people, the coercive powers of the Nazi system proved to be impotent or ineffective." I would have expected the opposite. I guess this means, the structures of society and rule of of law were actually sort of still working, but that most people feared going against the zeitgeist.

In fact, the Nazis had perverted the law and its rule but retained the structure of a lawful state, as chaos and anarchy were pretty much out of fashion in Germany after the 20s. Think of the Nazis as a gang of uneducated mobsters winning some decent hotel in a game of poker. They had to retain the reception, the service personal and the kitchen. But they behave disgustingly at every opportunity.

> Nazis as a gang of uneducated mobsters

Not at all e.g. most of the Wannsee Conference attendants had "Dr." title. Numerous responsible for massacres of civilians or inhumane medical experiments had the "Dr." title. The so called elite can turn into monstrosity as well. It's not "the primitives" which are the real threat most of the time. "The primitives" gain power only after the the elite is purged and/or expelled - see the first decades in Soviet Union after the Bolshevik revolution, or Stalinism in Poland.

Re: Germans Who Refused to Execute Civilians During World War II (1988) [pdf]

#18
post #8
post #6

The last line resonated with me a lot "In every case of documented refusal to obey orders to exterminate people, the coercive powers of the Nazi system proved to be impotent or ineffective." I would have expected the opposite. I guess this means, the structures of society and rule of of law were actually sort of still working, but that most people feared going against the zeitgeist.

In fact, the Nazis had perverted the law and its rule but retained the structure of a lawful state, as chaos and anarchy were pretty much out of fashion in Germany after the 20s. Think of the Nazis as a gang of uneducated mobsters winning some decent hotel in a game of poker. They had to retain the reception, the service personal and the kitchen. But they behave disgustingly at every opportunity.

There's nothing stopping a highly educated person from being an absolute monster, as we've seen repeatedly throughout history.

Re: Germans Who Refused to Execute Civilians During World War II (1988) [pdf]

#20

Interestingly, the Geneva Convention was barely used at all, and the "excuses" given were mostly based on the politics of the military instead.

That's because civilian protections where only added in 1949 to the Geneva Conventions. The Geneva Convention as-of WW2 would only be applicable to PoWs, not civilians.

To be fair I don't think anybody saw systemic violence upon civilians during a war between states (as opposed to a civil one) as a realistic possibility during the inter-war period. It was well outside the customs of war in our corner of the world at that point.

The national-social cocktail completely tore apart common decency.

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