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Germans Who Refused to Execute Civilians During World War II (1988) [pdf]

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Re: Germans Who Refused to Execute Civilians During World War II (1988) [pdf]

#21
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was this post intended as sarcasm, or did you actually mean to equate the torture of a small number of prisoners with mass executions of millions of civilians?

I never said they were equal. I don't know if anyone was punished for doing it though.

[flagged]

Re: Germans Who Refused to Execute Civilians During World War II (1988) [pdf]

#22
I think it's worth noting that the armed forces and the Nazi party itself were not in lock step for the duration of the 3rd Reich. While the SS answered more or less directly to the Nazi party there were certainly individuals throughout the leadership of the armed forces that did not like their resources being used to carry out genocide and or help the SS because they had little interest in that, they wanted to fight a real war. A lot of the leadership of the armed forces resented the fact that the Nazi party has usurped some of their power so they weren't too keen on bending over backwards to further the goals of their unspoken political opponents. Also have to remember that until they got the death camp system up and running most executions were done by firing squad. Doing this to civilians at large scale is kind of a shitty task so there's going to be really little enthusiasm for it from the lower officers and the grunts who will generally drag their feet and stall.

Re: Germans Who Refused to Execute Civilians During World War II (1988) [pdf]

#24

Interestingly, the Geneva Convention was barely used at all, and the "excuses" given were mostly based on the politics of the military instead.

Why would they care for the Geneva Convention? The whole point of the war was to ignore and bypass all kinds of previous signed conventions (regarding WWI, borders, alliances, etc).

Re: Germans Who Refused to Execute Civilians During World War II (1988) [pdf]

#25
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because civilian protections where only added in 1949 to the Geneva Conventions. The Geneva Convention as-of WW2 would only be applicable to PoWs, not civilians.

To be fair I don't think anybody saw systemic violence upon civilians during a war between states (as opposed to a civil one) as a realistic possibility during the inter-war period. It was well outside the customs of war in our corner of the world at that point. The national-social cocktail completely tore apart common decency.

I was not only about the land anymore, the massive industry [1] and agriculture [2] needed a lot of free stuff. Mistreatment of civilians was an implication, and we overestimate the destructiveness of hate - until the unification of Germany their fragmented principalities had been trembling from hate.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monowitz_concentration_camp#Bu...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostarbeiter

Re: Germans Who Refused to Execute Civilians During World War II (1988) [pdf]

#26
post #8
post #6

The last line resonated with me a lot "In every case of documented refusal to obey orders to exterminate people, the coercive powers of the Nazi system proved to be impotent or ineffective." I would have expected the opposite. I guess this means, the structures of society and rule of of law were actually sort of still working, but that most people feared going against the zeitgeist.

In fact, the Nazis had perverted the law and its rule but retained the structure of a lawful state, as chaos and anarchy were pretty much out of fashion in Germany after the 20s. Think of the Nazis as a gang of uneducated mobsters winning some decent hotel in a game of poker. They had to retain the reception, the service personal and the kitchen. But they behave disgustingly at every opportunity.

>Think of the Nazis as a gang of uneducated mobsters

Actually lots of highly educated people were Nazis, including Nazi leaders and apologists.

Including people considered by their (even Jewish, even post WWII) academic peers, as the "biggest thinkers" of the 20th century.

Heck, Mengele had 2 Ph.Ds (anthopology and medicine).

Re: Germans Who Refused to Execute Civilians During World War II (1988) [pdf]

#27
post #13

The courage to stand up against your own ingroup is the highest form of courage and morals. It requires independence of thought and high principles.

I agree with independence of thought, courage, and high principles, but is it moral? An militant anti-semite in present-day Germany is might be just as independent, principled, and courageous.

Re: Germans Who Refused to Execute Civilians During World War II (1988) [pdf]

#29
post #28

The Milgram Experiment[1] shows that most people do go along with what an authority figure tells them. It’s one of the more depressing experiments in social psychology. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

The Milgram experiment shows people will role-play if you put them in a role play situation.

It doesn't tell you anything about what people do in the real world in real situations.

Re: Germans Who Refused to Execute Civilians During World War II (1988) [pdf]

#30
post #26
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In fact, the Nazis had perverted the law and its rule but retained the structure of a lawful state, as chaos and anarchy were pretty much out of fashion in Germany after the 20s. Think of the Nazis as a gang of uneducated mobsters winning some decent hotel in a game of poker. They had to retain the reception, the service personal and the kitchen. But they behave disgustingly at every opportunity.

> Think of the Nazis as a gang of uneducated mobsters Actually lots of highly educated people were Nazis, including Nazi leaders and apologists. Including people considered by their (even Jewish, even post WWII) academic peers, as the "biggest thinkers" of the 20th century. Heck, Mengele had 2 Ph.Ds (anthopology and medicine).

Oskar Dirlewanger had a PhD in political science, and commanded a unit so brutal that an SS court was convened to investigate.

Imagine how horrific someone's actions must be when even the SS think they might be going too far.

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