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Its butterfly keyboard design has failed, but Apple has yet to admit its mistake

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Re: Its butterfly keyboard design has failed, but Apple has yet to admit its mistake

#561

Post by tomxor »

darkpuma wrote: post #429
dsfyu404ed wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple has little motivation to fix durability issues. They've always been willing to prioritize elegance and form over durability anyway. This is a fine Italian motorcycle, not a Russian dirtbike, of course it has less tolerance for the user "using it wrong". Sure it would be nice if they made them more durable but that's just not the kind of product they are interested in making and it's working out well for them th…

> "These are fine Swiss rifles, not AKs." "Fine swiss rifles" are known for being expensive to manufacture, not for being fragile. Incidentally, why can I buy a fine Swiss watch that works 500 feet under the ocean, but not a fine "Swiss"(Cupertino) laptop that can withstand a few drops of tap water?

Literally form vs function - Define "fine":

Apple: look at that fine ass, lets advertise the shit out of it and make a huge markup.

Swiss Arms Co: Look at the fine workmanship and high tolerances, this is a piece that will shoot straight and last.

Re: Its butterfly keyboard design has failed, but Apple has yet to admit its mistake

#562

Post by rbanffy »

noisem4ker wrote: post #475
dwaite wrote: post #414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Easily the worst way to design a mouse, ever. I don’t understand how it was approved. I do. It was on purpose. They do not want people using the wireless mouse as a wired mouse with a short, thick cord not designed for it. Which is totally what my parents would do.

Talk about user hostility.

The original Mac (and IIRC Lisa) had neither function nor arrow keys. Apple wanted users to use the mouse to move and to prevent software developers from building software that didn't feel like a Mac program.

NeXT workstations never had function keys.

Re: Its butterfly keyboard design has failed, but Apple has yet to admit its mistake

#563

Post by Simulacra »

vernie wrote: post #459
tzakrajs wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Guess this guy was pleased with his slower processor too.

The only substantial difference between my 2011 MBP and 2018 MBP for what I use it for (browsing the web, the lightest of computation) is that the 2018 model has really sharp edges that make me hate carrying it around. For my heavier workloads even the latest, top-of-the-line MBP is completely inadequate.

My personal laptop is a 2012 MacBook Pro. Still going strong.

Re: Its butterfly keyboard design has failed, but Apple has yet to admit its mistake

#564

Post by fivefive55 »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #396
dathinab wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly any Laptop you pay 1200+ on should "survive"(1) you _splashing_ Coffee on it, not just a view drops of liquid. It's totally technical doable in a number of ways and the only thing in its way is because you are fanatic about getting your laptop another mm thinner and/or profit margins. (1): Survive in the sense that it's in general fine and you at most have to replace some easy to replace not super expensive…

Apple has little motivation to fix durability issues. They've always been willing to prioritize elegance and form over durability anyway. This is a fine Italian motorcycle, not a Russian dirtbike, of course it has less tolerance for the user "using it wrong". Sure it would be nice if they made them more durable but that's just not the kind of product they are interested in making and it's working out well for them th…

This is one of the top 5 most entitled comments I've ever read on the internet, congratulations! Glad you can use your 'fine Italian Motorcycle' for work every day while us peasants have to deal with our reliable workhorses.

Re: Its butterfly keyboard design has failed, but Apple has yet to admit its mistake

#565

Post by rbanffy »

jimmy1 wrote: post #364
nrjames wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a 2016 MBP and love the keyboard. I've never had any problems with it. That's not to dismiss people who have experienced quality issues. I don't mind the touch bar, but it's not particularly useful.

I'm adding onto this -- I have a 2017 edition of the MBP for work, and I have a faulty keyboard. I hated it. "The touchbar is stupid", I proclaimed. I recently bought a 2018 edition for the wife because she has always expressed a desire of owning one of her own (my work always provided me with a mac). The keyboard is much improved. Additionally, watching a "normal" user interact with a Mac and a touchbar, versus me,…

For me, father of a 6yo daughter, the "emoji bar" is worth every penny.

Thinking about it, I've spent almost half of my career on computers that didn't have function keys (even though they usually had ESC as a physical one).

Re: Its butterfly keyboard design has failed, but Apple has yet to admit its mistake

#566

Post by RugnirViking »

G4BB3R wrote: post #352
cmiles74 wrote: post #324

A co-worked of mine convinced the company to buy them a MacBook (the first the company has ever purchased) to replace their aging Dell laptop. They have been doing more and more work on the company's iOS app and the aging Mac mini the company had purchased needed to replaced anyway. After having the laptop for just over a year, they called me upset as the laptop would no longer power on. After some gentle interrogati…

I am sorry for what happened. But I just can't understand people who drink and eat at the same table with electronics. It is hard to happen, but eventually it will and will damage everything, so why doing that, this upsets me when I see people taking risks for nothing. Foods and drinks shouldn't stay outside kitchen.

"this upsets me when I see people taking risks for nothing" this happens all the time, for every task. Life is practically a game of balancing risk and reward. Different people balance risk in different ways. Perhaps they accept the risk, but find that the productivity boost or convenience of eating at their desk is worth the small risk of paying for the price of a new laptop/keyboard. Or perhaps they have mistunderstood the risk, having never (yet) suffered through the process of replacing it.

Re: Its butterfly keyboard design has failed, but Apple has yet to admit its mistake

#567

Post by robin_reala »

coldtea wrote: post #196
bluesquared wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right! This is one of my biggest peeves with anti-Apple complainers...there are a few legitimate complaints with some of Apple's current designs but this isn't one! Apple Pencil 2 wireless charging nonwithstanding, this is the better design. Plugging in to your iPad is much better than having to dig out a cable, plug it into the Pencil, plug the other end somewhere else. Just think when your Pencil dies, which is mor…

> Just think when your Pencil dies, which is more convenient? Just think, when your Pencil plug end snaps, because it was protruding from the end of the iPad and you've dropped it, or hit something, or made a sudden move, etc, how convenient would that be? It's a bad design, end of story.

The Pencil comes with a female–female Lightning adapter. If you’re worried about snapping it, you can easily plug it into a normal cable.

Re: Its butterfly keyboard design has failed, but Apple has yet to admit its mistake

#568

Post by sonnyblarney »

robertAngst wrote: post #506
sonnyblarney wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This the real world: every physical product has tolerances and exhibits problems, and most that are expensive require maintenance. Moreover, new features are going to be problematic. Consider your statement as it would apply to cars for example: they are in constant need of repair, tweaking, maintenance. Butterfly keyboards have never been a problem for me, the issue is really the rate of problems, how they are fixed…

Design it so it doesnt break despite tolerances? This is engineering, having something fail is not acceptable.

"This is engineering, having something fail is not acceptable."

No. Engineering is not about 'zero failure' at all. It's about characterizing the failure properly.

Have you ever had the pleasure of working on a physical, manufactured product? There is no such thing as a perfect run. There are always defects, there are always failures for any product at scale.

100% of Apple products have a measurable failure rate.

The only Eng. problem where we shoot for 0 failures are a) Space Systems and b) Nuclear tech. Maybe some other things.

But even in Space and Nuclear ... there's still a tolerance!

We launch people into space with some kind of estimate as to the likelihood they will all die.

Re: Its butterfly keyboard design has failed, but Apple has yet to admit its mistake

#569

Post by cnf »

fumar wrote: post #277

I just came back to a MacBook Pro 2018 after several years of experimenting with Windows machines. Based on this thread I am outlier – I enjoy using the trackpad, touch strip, and the keyboard seems fine. In the past five years I have used the following; Thinkpad x230, Thinkpad X1 carbon, Thinkpad x370 yoga, Thinkpad X1 Yoga, Surface Pro 3,4,5, Surface Laptop, Surface Book 1,2, and a hackintosh Thinkpad X230. I was a…

I very much like my MBP keyboard and touchbar as well. And I know plenty of people that share the sentiment.

Re: Its butterfly keyboard design has failed, but Apple has yet to admit its mistake

#570

Post by cnf »

geerlingguy wrote: post #439
dmitryminkovsky wrote: post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Naa you’re not alone. I love the new MBP keyboard. My experience to suggests what we have here is a vocal minority. I type faster with the new style keyboard, I enjoy the springiness of the keys and their much larger size than previous iterations. I also like how their backlighting works compared to the old style. If people are having trouble with them, Apple should resolve those issues, but in my opinion the keyboar…

I love the feel, but in my 2016 I did have the spacebar stop working on one side (the side I tend to use more often) because of dirt ingress. My favorite keyboard ever, though, is the current 'Magic Keyboard'. It's like the perfect medium between the old chicklet-style that felt rather mushy to me and the new butterfly mechanism that's almost too rigid. Sadly, it seems Apple does not want to go back to that feel in t…

I absolutely love my touchbar, and would hate to see it go. I know per context where each key I need is.
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