Its butterfly keyboard design has failed, but Apple has yet to admit its mistake • Hacker News Board

Re: Its butterfly keyboard design has failed, but Apple has yet to admit its mistake

#361

Post by nolok » Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 3:58 PM UTC

alexhutcheson wrote: post #328

cmiles74 wrote: post #324

A co-worked of mine convinced the company to buy them a MacBook (the first the company has ever purchased) to replace their aging Dell laptop. They have been doing more and more work on the company's iOS app and the aging Mac mini the company had purchased needed to replaced anyway. After having the laptop for just over a year, they called me upset as the laptop would no longer power on. After some gentle interrogati…

Is it normal for companies to expect employees to pay for accidentally damaged equipment? At everywhere that I've worked, some accidental damage was treated as a cost of doing business, and IT would replace it.

I guess parent and you are talking in the US context, but to add another data point in France it's not even legal. If the employee did it on purpose or by (grave or repeated) negligence then you can fire them with fault, if they really tried to harm the company "faute lourde" and then sue them for damage.

But making them pay for repairs for a laptop after accidental every day accident? You would lose up in prud'homme court faster than ever (its the worker / employees court).

Re: Its butterfly keyboard design has failed, but Apple has yet to admit its mistake

#362

Post by manojlds » Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 3:58 PM UTC

SilasX wrote: post #275

weberc2 wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, the trackpads on Mac just work. I recently made a foray back into Windows a few years ago and was disappointed to learn that PC trackpads have made little progress in the intervening decade. Is it really easier to touchscreenify your entire software stack than to build a sane touchpad?

In terms of sensitivity it's good, but the new MBPs also have this enormous trackpad that makes it so I can't use the keyboard without accidentally swiping it all the time and moving the cursor in a way that does something I don't want. I know I'm in the minority here, since I do so much on the keyboard and don't use the mouse or the fancy trackpad features, but it's really infuriating. Edit: I must be getting old, b…

The bigger trackpad is a huge downer in other ways too. I can't keep the laptop on my tummy while lying on a sofa.

Does anyone know the motivation for making them big and so close to the edge?

Re: Its butterfly keyboard design has failed, but Apple has yet to admit its mistake

#363

Post by brandonmenc » Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 4:01 PM UTC

pps43 wrote: post #171

coldtea wrote: post #78

15+ years as an Apple user, this is my biggest pet peeve. The other two being: - the touch strip, which I find mostly annoying. I'd prefer physical buttons with the ability to show different labels (a la Optimus keyboard). - whichever idiot thought putting the power plug at the bottom of the Magic Mouse was a good idea.

Discontinuing MagSafe should also be on this list.

Being able to plug the AC adapter into either side of the laptop > MagSafe.

Re: Its butterfly keyboard design has failed, but Apple has yet to admit its mistake

#364

Post by jimmy1 » Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 4:02 PM UTC

nrjames wrote: post #316

fumar wrote: post #277

I just came back to a MacBook Pro 2018 after several years of experimenting with Windows machines. Based on this thread I am outlier – I enjoy using the trackpad, touch strip, and the keyboard seems fine. In the past five years I have used the following; Thinkpad x230, Thinkpad X1 carbon, Thinkpad x370 yoga, Thinkpad X1 Yoga, Surface Pro 3,4,5, Surface Laptop, Surface Book 1,2, and a hackintosh Thinkpad X230. I was a…

I have a 2016 MBP and love the keyboard. I've never had any problems with it. That's not to dismiss people who have experienced quality issues. I don't mind the touch bar, but it's not particularly useful.

I'm adding onto this -- I have a 2017 edition of the MBP for work, and I have a faulty keyboard. I hated it. "The touchbar is stupid", I proclaimed.

I recently bought a 2018 edition for the wife because she has always expressed a desire of owning one of her own (my work always provided me with a mac). The keyboard is much improved.

Additionally, watching a "normal" user interact with a Mac and a touchbar, versus me, a developer was eye opening, and I suddenly realized there is a lot more to the puzzle we are so blind to. She loves it. Sure, it is an "emoji bar" when she is in iMessage, but she also loves the scrolling functionality it provides in Photos.

I still don't see much use for it personally, but I am no longer a rapid opponent of it as I once was. There's always been extra ports and features on other laptops I've used in the past, and I never seemed so critical of those as well. Maybe I bought into the mob mentality? Going back to my wife, her work provided her with a Thinkpad Yoga. It has a touch screen, and a stylus. Ok touch screens I am not the biggest fan of, but I happen to think the stylus is cool! I am sure there were many users of the previous Thinkpads at her company that were going "What!? A stupid stylus? Who needs this!" I realized I was doing the same thing with the new MBP.

Touchbar or not, it is still the most quality, aesthetically pleasing, well built laptop I use, and it still remains miles beyond any PC I ever used as well, Inspirons, XPSes, Surfaces included.

Re: Its butterfly keyboard design has failed, but Apple has yet to admit its mistake

#365

Post by davidandgoliath » Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 4:04 PM UTC

I abandoned apple in Dec. of '17 after 5+ years in the ecosystem & went on a hefty soul search for what to use next. I knew the touchbar was sort of a warning flare that they were trending away from what I'd need out of computing.

After frustrations with windows / linux (laptop, dell xps 13), I ended up shelling out a bunch of money to get a macbook pro '16 with just the two ports: No touchbar. Had to have the top replaced within 6 months due to keyboard. The two ports heated up and pushing heavy throughput via wireless would make bluetooth go apeshit. Sold it immediately afterwards, endured a few more frustrating months with linux. Got a '17 pro, surely they had fixed things. Keys started sticking. Replacement, sold it. Now on a '19 macbook air, because surely they've fixed it, yes?

Keys are sticking after less than ~10 uses.

My desktop has been linux powered since that soul search started, without issue. The trackpad on my lenovo x5c is working wonderfully under ubuntu after I realized I had been importing broken configs from my 10+ year old backups: Exclude your dotfiles.

I only miss two things from the entire ecosystem: ulysses (the text editor) & little snitch. Everything else about linux is far superior.

Re: Its butterfly keyboard design has failed, but Apple has yet to admit its mistake

#366

Post by zamalek » Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 4:04 PM UTC

I joined HN during the Ballmer/Jobs era. Back then the community seemed predominantly Apple and [rightfully so] very weary of Microsoft. Getting to that point took Apple a huge amount of work; I still remember the days when Apple purely existed for Adobe and DAWs. Apple had to climb a mountain of consumer apathy in order to displace Microsoft. The hardware specs have never been great (which is why I personally never made the switch), but Apple was good enough for nearly everything and I could never argue against Apple build quality.

The tables seem to have switched. Microsoft is putting out some unbelievably good hardware, my MSFT friends have surfaces and I drool over them (without worrying about breaking the keyboard :) ). My Dell isn't that bad, certainly superior to anything Apple has on offer (the touchpad sucks as always, but I have a bluetooth trackball). Windows is now a great OS. Microsoft is now facing the very same mountain of consumer apathy that Apple faced.

It does seem to be changing. There was an Ask HN thread yesterday asking about setups, and the amount of "Install Windows 10" or "Install Linux" I saw on HN was utterly bizarre.

Re: Its butterfly keyboard design has failed, but Apple has yet to admit its mistake

#367

Post by ubermonkey » Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 4:05 PM UTC

alexhutcheson wrote: post #328

cmiles74 wrote: post #324

A co-worked of mine convinced the company to buy them a MacBook (the first the company has ever purchased) to replace their aging Dell laptop. They have been doing more and more work on the company's iOS app and the aging Mac mini the company had purchased needed to replaced anyway. After having the laptop for just over a year, they called me upset as the laptop would no longer power on. After some gentle interrogati…

Is it normal for companies to expect employees to pay for accidentally damaged equipment? At everywhere that I've worked, some accidental damage was treated as a cost of doing business, and IT would replace it.

Absolutely not. Maybe if there's a pattern of repeated irresponsible behavior, I could see a little bit of an argument for it, but the more likely state of affairs would be that the problem employee would only ever be given shitty or cast-off machines.

Frankly, I'd see it as more reasonable to FIRE someone who repeatedly failed to care for company equipment appropriately.

Re: Its butterfly keyboard design has failed, but Apple has yet to admit its mistake

#368

Post by rootusrootus » Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 4:05 PM UTC

alexhutcheson wrote: post #328

cmiles74 wrote: post #324

A co-worked of mine convinced the company to buy them a MacBook (the first the company has ever purchased) to replace their aging Dell laptop. They have been doing more and more work on the company's iOS app and the aging Mac mini the company had purchased needed to replaced anyway. After having the laptop for just over a year, they called me upset as the laptop would no longer power on. After some gentle interrogati…

Is it normal for companies to expect employees to pay for accidentally damaged equipment? At everywhere that I've worked, some accidental damage was treated as a cost of doing business, and IT would replace it.

Not a single company I've worked for has had a policy of employees paying for accidental damage.

Re: Its butterfly keyboard design has failed, but Apple has yet to admit its mistake

#369

Post by orblivion » Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 4:08 PM UTC

trimbo wrote: post #350

scarface74 wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m in no way defending Apple’s keyboards and there are some real issues with tiny bits of dust completely ruining a keyboard, but normal laptops have always been susceptible to even a little liquid damage. But if your coworker couldn’t just go to his manager, tell them what happened and the company paid for it, that says more about the company.

> normal laptop have always been susceptible to even a little liquid damage Check out Thinkpads https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/landingpage/small-business/reso...

I came here to say this as well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0U5n2WaMMHo

I was a real dumbass myself one day and spilled a glass of water on my Lenovo in a cafe. I took it apart just in case to dry out, but I'm not sure I even needed to. I put it together and it was just fine.

I have an Apple laptop for work and I work in cafes a lot. I assumed that Apple of all companies would consider this lifestyle issue, but now I'll be extra careful. I guess I shouldn't be surprised that times have changed for Apple.

Re: Its butterfly keyboard design has failed, but Apple has yet to admit its mistake

#370

Post by moogly » Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 4:08 PM UTC

mrybczyn wrote: post #181

lostmyoldone wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dropping the magnetic power cord connector is a major issue for me, but otherwise I wholeheartedly agree.

Magplug charging is magical! Easily the best contribution to computer design from Apple, ever. And then it gets dropped... I wonder if the poor hardware has to do with increasingly outsourced R&D. I mean, everyone at Apple is rich, why should they bother with all the hard details ...

Whilst Apple was the first company to bring magnetically coupled power cabling to computers with MagSafe, the idea/design wasn't original; it's been a common design for kitchen appliances in the Japanese market since the year ~2000.