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The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

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Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#201

Post by pingswept »

guylhem wrote: post #147
pingswept wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is the crux of what happened, but I don't really understand what it means: "he suddently turned weird. There was 2 or 3 people around, and he started telling about us about growing in Illinois, having had bullet wounds, knowing how to defend himself, and finally threatening violence." To me, this sounds like someone with PTSD, (sort of a Walter Sobchak character, if you're familiar with The Big Lebowski)…

I still don't exactly understand why he did that. Maybe PTSD as you suggested. And I still can't believe someone would steal from an open bar. He was laughing all the while. It really looked like playing tag to me so I played along. Then he became weird. Anyway I posted that anecdote to push the message that sometimes we build rationalizations about other people behavior. The article is enlightening - as someone else…

I don't think I fully understand what happened, but it sounds like a very strange experience.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#202

Post by bostonvaulter2 »

calebgilbert wrote: post #163
wtracy wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've dealt with my share of reverse-chauvinism-disguised-as-feminism, so I know where you're coming from, but consider what you just said: "if I say something to someone and did not mean any offense/harassment, did not consider it to be offensive/harassing - and someone else still wants to cry about it, then f-*ck them" You are the only one who gets to decide whether your actions are considered offensive? Really? I b…

Yes, actually - we all, at some point, get to be the final arbiters of deciding whether what what we said was offensive or not. (which I suppose also means that everyone else gets to decided to the final arbiter of whether they're offended or not - a right some have proven time again that they're not giving up) So again - I guess my bottom line is, if I didn't mean to offend a person, and they want to get offended an…

I'd like to give you a mantra that I try my best to live by. "Judge others by their intentions and yourself by your actions". That is to say that other people can and will interpret your actions in ways other than how you intended.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#203

Post by chc »

stevenbedrick wrote: post #144
ibejoeb wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Harassment is not simply unwanted attention: agreed. However, this is not sexual harassment: "A presenter had a title slide followed by a slide of bikini-clad women holding laptops, which he said was just to get people to pay attention."

I disagree. That sort of slide (and its associated comment) is absolutely sexual harassment, in that it automatically sexualizes what is supposed to be a professional environment. Given the technology world's long and unpleasant track record of sexist behavior towards women (as well as towards... well, pretty much anybody who isn't, cisgendered, heterosexual, and male), I personally can think of very few ways that se…

I don't see how you square that with the assertion that "harassment is not simply unwanted attention." Given that premise, it's almost an a priori fact that a sexualized environment is not cognate with harassment, since AFAICT the issue with a sexualized environment is that it brings or constitutes unwanted attention.

It might be uncomfortable, but it is not (in and of itself) harassment. Distinguishing is important, even if you agree that both are a problem.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#204

Post by rb2k_ »

achompas wrote: post #52
rb2k_ wrote: post #33

What annoys me is that the article talks about a "problem of a sexualized environment", but the [post]( http://blog.nerdchic.net/archives/418/ ) that is being refered to describes things like this: > I lay across the bed, sat on laps, generally tried to squish in to any available space and get time to talk to all the fabulous people thronging the place. [...] I had a few drinks. I was wearing a skirt of such a length…

Your comment blames the victim. Don't do this. Whether it's a professional networking event or a fun, crazy, not-so-professional party, no one should be treated in this manner. No matter her (or his) behavior or the atmosphere. Period. Also, she mentioned "sitting on laps" because there was no room in the party, and people have a right to flirt without being, uh, sexually molested. Finally, the linked article cites t…

I don't blame the victim, I just thought I would get away with NOT saying that I condone sexual assault because I personally think that this goes without saying...

I just think that no matter how crowded a hotel room, you shouldn't sit on other peoples laps or flirt with people if you actually intend to keep the gathering anything close to professional. If you want to sexualize your environment, I'd suggest a short skirt, flirting and sitting on people's laps.

Sadly, you can't have both.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#205

Post by JoachimSchipper »

robg wrote: post #74
JoachimSchipper wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Signalling such things is, in fact, not professional. Of course, neither are most after-hours parties...

By definition, after hours parties are not professional. That's why they're after hours and parties. If women can't flirt in those environs, we're doomed as a species. Unless you want to go trolling at dance clubs?

> By definition, after hours parties are not professional. That's why they're after hours and parties.

Definitely. Were you under the impression that I was saying otherwise?

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#206

Post by MoreMoschops »

lhnn wrote: post #173
MoreMoschops wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I get tired of women complaining about sexism in the startup/tech field." Cry me a river. Would you prefer people just shut up about it?

Yes. Things like "Men wanted" should not offend someone when used lightheartedly as a cultural reference, but it did offend a lot of people on HN. That bothers me. Seems people went to town downvoting me here. I wonder what things would look like if HN had Slashdot's mod/metamod system. Oh, I can dream....

"That bothers me."

So here you are, complaining about other people complaining when something bothers them. Do I need to draw you a diagram to illustrate your inconsistency?

"Seems people went to town downvoting me here."

Perhaps they enjoy living in a society where people are allowed to express disagreement.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#207

Post by MoreMoschops »

calebgilbert wrote: post #137
mambodog wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, so, because they're lesbians (so you say) it's not possible for them to be sexually harassed by men? I don't follow your train of thought.

It's about any women (lesbians and non-lesbians alike) not actually being harassed, but rather just running around trying to enforce their own agenda on the world. My bottom line is this - if I say something to someone and did not mean any offense/harassment, did not consider it to be offensive/harassing - and someone else still wants to cry about it, then f-*ck them. I guess in the particular case of the particular…

"My bottom line is this - if I say something to someone and did not mean any offense/harassment, did not consider it to be offensive/harassing - and someone else still wants to cry about it, then f-*ck them."

Hurting people accidentally and not caring at all. What is that level of lack of empathy and non-caring? Is that autism, or is it some kind of sociopathy or psychopathy?

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#208

Post by btilly »

VMG wrote: post #194
btilly wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, that one was pretty egregious. I think that only a small minority of organizers would be that insensitive. Given the number of conferences and events there are, I don't think that that can be taken as typical. Most of the other incidents were something that can be explained by a relatively small number of creeps. In one of them there was clear evidence that said creep had done the same thing to multiple women.

Why was he still allowed to go to these events then? He should have been banned from attending after the first time.

Re-reading the article, the story I'm thinking of was Mackenzie Morgan's. She was grabbed from behind and kissed. She says that she found out that it happened to someone else as well at the same party.

It is not clear to me that she actually knew the guy's name, or that she reported the incident. If she didn't report the incident (women rarely do), how could he be banned?

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#209

Post by c00ki3s »

enneff wrote: post #176
jules wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strippers are of course ridiculous to have at a conference. I can't even begin to imagine how anyone could think that it's a good idea. However, read the proposed policy: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/index.php?title=Conference_ant... > We do not tolerate harassment of conference participants in any form. Sexual language and imagery is not appropriate for any conference venue, including talks. Conference participants…

I agree it sounds ridiculous, but now I am having a hard time thinking of an appropriate example of sexual language at a tech conference. These rules set clearly defined boundaries that even the most tactless, socially inept people can understand and abide by.

"Fuck I dropped my laptop" ?

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#210

Post by calebgilbert »

MoreMoschops wrote: post #207
calebgilbert wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's about any women (lesbians and non-lesbians alike) not actually being harassed, but rather just running around trying to enforce their own agenda on the world. My bottom line is this - if I say something to someone and did not mean any offense/harassment, did not consider it to be offensive/harassing - and someone else still wants to cry about it, then f-*ck them. I guess in the particular case of the particular…

"My bottom line is this - if I say something to someone and did not mean any offense/harassment, did not consider it to be offensive/harassing - and someone else still wants to cry about it, then f-*ck them." Hurting people accidentally and not caring at all. What is that level of lack of empathy and non-caring? Is that autism, or is it some kind of sociopathy or psychopathy?

You hurt me with you whining comment. See how being hurt can be subjective?
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