LeBron James school that was considered an experiment is showing promise • Hacker News Board

Re: LeBron James school that was considered an experiment is showing promise

#51

Post by dashundchen » Mon, Apr 15, 2019, 10:57 PM UTC

microcolonel wrote: post #36

germinalphrase wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may be illegal ina lot of places, but not everywhere. In many states charter schools are not obligated to fullfill the same legal requirements for special education, standardized testing, or English as a second language placement.

It's not necessarily a bad thing. If the state or council can figure out how to set the incentives correctly it could work out better. It really is a matter of opinion as to how to solve this issue, and the best answer may differ from place to place.

It is a bad thing if you want to have strong universal public education.

Public schools in the US are already strongly segregated by income and race since schools are typically a municipal government concern.

Charter schools add an additional layer of segregation. Now you have schools that can divert public funds, but don't have to meet the same standards, services and accessibility standards as public schools. They can play games with expulsions, special ed classifications and lottery admissions to get the student population they want.

Charters filter out students and and funds from the public school system to create another tier of schools, leaving the worst performers and students with the most special needs in public schools.

Meanwhile charter schools teaching positions are frequently non-union with lower pay and worse benefits than public schools, eliminating what traditionally was a stable rung on the middle class ladder.

Throw in the businesses that smell profit in schools with less public accountability - including real estate, outsourced operations and services - and you have serious regression in public education if you ask me.

Re: LeBron James school that was considered an experiment is showing promise

#52

Post by dashundchen » Mon, Apr 15, 2019, 11:00 PM UTC

ThomPete wrote: post #18

icelancer wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is selection bias for sure; except it works in the opposite way regarding successful outcomes. IPS takes low-performing individuals and puts them in a lottery system. This differs from a charter school or other alternative schools that skirt responsibility of special needs kids... but it should bear mention that IPS is not without controversy. The lottery system causes a lot of strife in eligible-but-unpicked i…

Charter schools dont skirt special needs kids they take them in. Whats really absurd is that a lot of people are against the lottery but totally fine with public schools zipcode method. Edit: why the downvotes? My two sons are at a charter school they take special needs children. They have to by law.

There are plenty of reports of charter schools pushing out low-performing students to get the student population they want. Labeling students with disabilities and claiming they don't have enough services to support them is very common. Unequal punishment leading to expulsion is another.

http://gothamist.com/2015/10/30/success_academy_charter.php

Another common tactic is to play games with the lottery/application process to get the student population they want.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-charters-admissions-i...

Anecdotally the teachers I know working in a local charter tell me the administration definitely makes it known they want low performers out transferred out before testing is performed.

Re: LeBron James school that was considered an experiment is showing promise

#53

Post by suddenstutter » Mon, Apr 15, 2019, 11:01 PM UTC

luckydata wrote: post #44

The stuff that school is doing is really just common sense and the success they are experiencing is both a symptom that what we always known works... still works but also that we do a real shit job at education in this country. This is not a problem you can fix with technology, the only technology needed is good food every day for the kids and parents (or guardians) that can be involved in their kid's education.

Seriously, its crazy how easily people are shocked by common sense being put to work.

Re: LeBron James school that was considered an experiment is showing promise

#54

Post by _lessthan0 » Mon, Apr 15, 2019, 11:02 PM UTC

spraak wrote: post #47

_lessthan0 wrote: post #45

Top comments, shock people cant feel good about something because it didnt happen to them. I was hoping for some uplifting commentary but like all other social media sites HN is going down a bad path.

The predominant attitude is cynical

I think we are on the same page

Re: LeBron James school that was considered an experiment is showing promise

#55

Post by microcolonel » Mon, Apr 15, 2019, 11:05 PM UTC

dashundchen wrote: post #51

microcolonel wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not necessarily a bad thing. If the state or council can figure out how to set the incentives correctly it could work out better. It really is a matter of opinion as to how to solve this issue, and the best answer may differ from place to place.

It is a bad thing if you want to have strong universal public education. Public schools in the US are already strongly segregated by income and race since schools are typically a municipal government concern. Charter schools add an additional layer of segregation. Now you have schools that can divert public funds, but don't have to meet the same standards, services and accessibility standards as public schools. They…

> It is a bad thing if you want to have strong universal public education.

> Public schools in the US are already strongly segregated by income and race since schools are typically a municipal government concern.

Well, you are complaining at once about students studying outside their catchment (quality of school depends on willingness to travel), and students studying inside their catchment (quality of school depends on local tax revenues).

The truth is that every system has tradeoffs, not every flaw in each system is fatal, and there is real room to explore.

> Meanwhile charter schools teaching positions are frequently non-union with lower pay and worse benefits than public schools

From some perspectives that could be a good thing, because some places would rather be able to afford to have kids in school every weekday, than index the pension fund for a vote buy. Teachers should work in a market like other professionals. Very productive teachers can scale up, as is clear from success stories regularly seen, for example, in Korea.

Re: LeBron James school that was considered an experiment is showing promise

#56

Post by jwagenet » Mon, Apr 15, 2019, 11:06 PM UTC

sonnyblarney wrote: post #19

matt4077 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt there was ever much debate that parents are the single most important factor for children. It’s just that, from a policy perspective, it is extremely hard to actually have any impact on that behavior. It’s basically social work, a concept for which there is essentially no money at scale in the US.

More wealth/economic security, safe environment, conscientious and attentive parents, good community of role models, peer kids with good parents as well = decent students. In other words - children are reared by their parents, as they always have (!) and their academic achievement is mostly a function of their upbringing. Sure, some kids hate school or are bad at at even with good parents. Some schools are better tha…

> The discussion in some ways should be more about good jobs, stabilizing dangerous neighbourhoods, flushing out gangs, giving troubled kids a place to hang out + role models, making the learning environment safe where kids can focus on learning.

I think these issues are direct symptoms of poor education quality, which is itself a symptom of the issues you mention. It's a vicious cycle that perpetuates as the kids become adults and parents who create the negative environment and can't support their kids themselves. It's a long game, but investing in education is probably the "easy" place to start while kids are malleable. Adults are harder to reeducate; good luck flushing out the gangs, what are you going to do with those folks? Do as IPS and provide resources for parents to get training for things like GEDs so they can hopefully get better jobs. Provide after school programs and a safe sub community. It'll take time, but the new generation can hopefully grow up in a better place.

Re: LeBron James school that was considered an experiment is showing promise

#57

Post by tracker1 » Mon, Apr 15, 2019, 11:10 PM UTC

singhrac wrote: post #42

tracker1 wrote: post #37

I'm just happy to see a positive article.. I see so much political or tech news, I don't get much on the positive side, generally speaking.

I read this regularly to get that :) https://www.nytimes.com/spotlight/the-week-in-good-news

Looks like it stalled back in January.. :-(

Re: LeBron James school that was considered an experiment is showing promise

#58

Post by jonhohle » Mon, Apr 15, 2019, 11:12 PM UTC

microcolonel wrote: post #28

icelancer wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is selection bias for sure; except it works in the opposite way regarding successful outcomes. IPS takes low-performing individuals and puts them in a lottery system. This differs from a charter school or other alternative schools that skirt responsibility of special needs kids... but it should bear mention that IPS is not without controversy. The lottery system causes a lot of strife in eligible-but-unpicked i…

> This differs from a charter school or other alternative schools that skirt responsibility of special needs kids This is illegal in a lot of places, and I doubt it is common.

That’s one of the issues with Phoenix area charter schools. They may say they offer the services, but other criteria to enter or stay in the school have resulted in them services far fewer special needs kids than public schools.

Add on top of that that that one of the larger charter chains has moved to a model where effectively all money is laundered through a private company which the school then outsourced _all_ of its expenses to, and you get a situation where it appears the owners are intentionally fleecing the taxpayer and their buddies in the state government are making sure it’s legal for them to do it. It seems like corruption, which would be bad enough in itself, but they’re doing it at the expense of an already underfunded public education system.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2017/03/...

Re: LeBron James school that was considered an experiment is showing promise

#59

Post by sonnyblarney » Mon, Apr 15, 2019, 11:17 PM UTC

jwagenet wrote: post #56

sonnyblarney wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More wealth/economic security, safe environment, conscientious and attentive parents, good community of role models, peer kids with good parents as well = decent students. In other words - children are reared by their parents, as they always have (!) and their academic achievement is mostly a function of their upbringing. Sure, some kids hate school or are bad at at even with good parents. Some schools are better tha…

> The discussion in some ways should be more about good jobs, stabilizing dangerous neighbourhoods, flushing out gangs, giving troubled kids a place to hang out + role models, making the learning environment safe where kids can focus on learning. I think these issues are direct symptoms of poor education quality, which is itself a symptom of the issues you mention. It's a vicious cycle that perpetuates as the kids be…

I see your point, and I do agree there is to some degree a feedback loop, but I don't think 'bad schools' are a primary driver.

And good point about creating a 'bubble' where kids can learn, you're right, tactical solutions might be apt.

But when the factories disappeared in the 1970's-1990's and the jobs disappeared, a lot of places went to pot.

If there were jobs - kids could bring their own meals, families would be more stable, there'd be less crime, there'd be a foundational social fabric.

Social programs pose all sorts of 'commons' problems ... the best kind of social program is 'a decent job'.

I still can't understand why Google, Facebook and some big banks talk all sorts of 'social progress' crap, but the thing that we need the most: distribution of income - is not on their radar.

I wish Google would open 'service and support' centres in the worst neighbourhoods in America and just give people jobs to do whatever. That would earn my respect.

They can start in East Palo Alto, literally only a few hundred meters from their offices ... I always found the decrepit existence of E. Palo Alto such a stain on the Valley as a whole.

Re: LeBron James school that was considered an experiment is showing promise

#60

Post by maxxxxx » Mon, Apr 15, 2019, 11:18 PM UTC

mjevans wrote: post #26

matt4077 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt there was ever much debate that parents are the single most important factor for children. It’s just that, from a policy perspective, it is extremely hard to actually have any impact on that behavior. It’s basically social work, a concept for which there is essentially no money at scale in the US.

It's interesting, because if we were actually battling a War on Poverty, we wouldn't need to have a war on drugs, or any other kind of crime.

There is always a tendency to make wars against the wrong people like the war on drugs going against drug users or the war on poverty going against poor people.