While I'm pleased to see this article on HN, is it appropriate to use a "subscriber link" in a public forum like HN?
I would be surprised if a link on the frontpage of HN didn't lead to more subscriptions - but I could be wrong.
The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]
51–60 of 220 posts
Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]
#52What annoys me is that the article talks about a "problem of a sexualized environment", but the [post]( http://blog.nerdchic.net/archives/418/ ) that is being refered to describes things like this: > I lay across the bed, sat on laps, generally tried to squish in to any available space and get time to talk to all the fabulous people thronging the place. [...] I had a few drinks. I was wearing a skirt of such a length…
Your comment blames the victim. Don't do this.
Whether it's a professional networking event or a fun, crazy, not-so-professional party, no one should be treated in this manner. No matter her (or his) behavior or the atmosphere. Period. Also, she mentioned "sitting on laps" because there was no room in the party, and people have a right to flirt without being, uh, sexually molested.
Finally, the linked article cites this as one example. There are many others, like when the author
organized a group outing to a pub, only to have one of the invited workshop attendees grab my ass while I was having a completely normal conversation.
(EDIT) sp332 points out that GP is discussing the environment at these events, but we're operating in shades of gray here.
The author talks about how the attitude towards women at these events is "institutionalized sexism." That is, people hired strippers etc. for years, and that attitude still exists at conferences/events. Noira could've been out-of-bounds by sitting in someone's lap, but we don't have any information on whether she knows the person, has a relationship with them, etc.
Still, GP's comment implies that Noira's behavior fosters the "sexualized environment" the author is complaining about. My point is that there's a big leap from Noira's flirting to women being groped. (/edit)
Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]
#53What annoys me is that the article talks about a "problem of a sexualized environment", but the [post]( http://blog.nerdchic.net/archives/418/ ) that is being refered to describes things like this: > I lay across the bed, sat on laps, generally tried to squish in to any available space and get time to talk to all the fabulous people thronging the place. [...] I had a few drinks. I was wearing a skirt of such a length…
It was at a breakout party in a hotel room - hardly the main stage of the conference.
Even in a sexually charged environment where people are strongly flirting with each other, a reasonable person will know the line between flirting (and back off if the signals are poor) and assaulting someone. When a woman rejects your potentially reasonable advance, shoving your hand down her pants isn't step 2.
Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]
#54What annoys me is that the article talks about a "problem of a sexualized environment", but the [post]( http://blog.nerdchic.net/archives/418/ ) that is being refered to describes things like this: > I lay across the bed, sat on laps, generally tried to squish in to any available space and get time to talk to all the fabulous people thronging the place. [...] I had a few drinks. I was wearing a skirt of such a length…
Yes... and there was not necessarily anything wrong with making a pass at her (i.e. taking her aside and going for a kiss etc, although it's hardly well executed it is harmless and she clearly views it that way)
But when rebuffed you don't then feel her up. There is a line to be crossed; she brought the passes on herself to be sure, but not the assault.
(EDIT: the replies to this make it clear my point got a bit twisted. I was rebuffing the parent to this' point about her being flirty at the party; by suggesting that flirtyness is not wrong and neither is [in many cases] making passes at flirty people. But that assaulting them after a clear rebuff is always wrong. In this case it is clear he was entirely in the wrong. Using the word "necessarily" was meant to convey that, obviously that didn't work ;))
Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]
#55Earlier quoted context omitted.
"without getting something broken over your head" What is the point of getting into a potentially life-threatening situation just to teach a jerk a lesson? As for less drastic responses, I agree that the best way to enlighten people would probably be when caught in the act. It seems unlikely that "photograph upskirt guy" is reading this article and just now it dawns on him "maybe I shouldn't have been doing that".
I'm not advocating breaking things over peoples heads. I'm saying that I'm shocked that the heads of said upskirt photographers havent been used to break anything yet. It shows a level of restraint that is certainly morally commendable, whether it has benefitted the community long term I am not so sure. > What is the point of getting into a potentially life-threatening situation just to teach a jerk a lesson? What is…
Cracking a bottle over someones head could escalate (and land you in jail anyway).
Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]
#56A lot of complaints about sexism in FLOSS conference mainly refer to sexual references, or (semi-)pornography. If you want to have a professional conference, then yes you should have a 'no sex' policy. However, are women really that anti-sex?
In short, no.
You might be interested in reading: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Sex_is_beautiful
Also, don't assume that it's only women who object to sexual content in technical contexts.
Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]
#57Ah, yes. I remember once casually joking at a get together, Someone needs to tell ESR that he's not God's gift to women. When everyone was done laughing, it turned out that both women present at the table had actually been propositioned by ESR. (And had turned him down.) A small minority of men cause the vast majority of the problem. Unfortunately it doesn't take many to create a real problem.
But how do you explain this then?
> When strippers were hired to mix with people at the Saturday night event everyone attended, that made everyone uncomfortable
I suspect that there is some level of ignorance and even acceptance in the community
Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]
#58Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]
#59What annoys me is that the article talks about a "problem of a sexualized environment", but the [post]( http://blog.nerdchic.net/archives/418/ ) that is being refered to describes things like this: > I lay across the bed, sat on laps, generally tried to squish in to any available space and get time to talk to all the fabulous people thronging the place. [...] I had a few drinks. I was wearing a skirt of such a length…
But the point here is surely "flirting with other boys", not the one who then assaulted her. Can you flirt? Sure. Can you wear what you like, safe in the knowledge that people still have no right to assault you? Yes, you should be able to.
I'm a guy, but when I go out I try and look nice. Sometimes I'll flirt with people. That's fine. If I flirt with someone and it's not reciprocated, I stop. Immediately.
You're basically just rephrasing the "she was asking for it"argument there. And it's crap. So don't.
Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]
#60What annoys me is that the article talks about a "problem of a sexualized environment", but the [post]( http://blog.nerdchic.net/archives/418/ ) that is being refered to describes things like this: > I lay across the bed, sat on laps, generally tried to squish in to any available space and get time to talk to all the fabulous people thronging the place. [...] I had a few drinks. I was wearing a skirt of such a length…
On the other side, the article mentions the double bind women are in: they are generally treated as "non-technical" and so need to use tricks to get others to pay attention to what they are saying, yet these trick that end up being interpreted as flirting and sexual advances.
My concern here is lumping flirting in with sexual advances. A big part of the problem is men see the first and assume the second, or worse, promiscuity. That's the bad path.