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Report deems Russia a pioneer in GPS spoofing attacks

zdnet.com

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Re: Report deems Russia a pioneer in GPS spoofing attacks

#71

Post by pps43 »

jhayward wrote: post #70
pps43 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Back of the envelope. The distance between Vnukovo airport and Kremlin is 30 km, speed of light is 300,000 km/s, time delay is 10^-4 seconds. Let's say it takes the moving car 100 seconds to get from outside the jamming area to inside. So receiver clock has to drift less than that. A year is pi * 10^7 seconds, so in a year receiver clock should drift by less than pi*10^(7-4-2), or approximately 30 seconds. My wristwa…

Now please explain, in terms of how GPS receivers operate, how that information helps you defeat spoofing.

GPS receiver determines its position by measuring the distances to GPS satellites. Those distances are calculated from time delays. To get the delays, the receiver should know the exact time. Its own clock is not stable enough to do it, so our receiver has to determine exact time by monitoring one more satellite than is strictly necessary, and calculating the time from that.

Now if this "exact" time suddenly jumps (compared to internal clock), it probably means that the signal is not coming directly from the satellites, but relayed from Vnukovo.

Re: Report deems Russia a pioneer in GPS spoofing attacks

#73

Post by blackflame7000 »

SiempreViernes wrote: post #65
blackflame7000 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

S400 is no where near as good as our Aegis system. I know because I worked on it. The patriot missile did have some spectacular fails though where an anti-missile became confused and shot right into the ground https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YS4i2InVB-Y Although I will give the Russians props for possibly being the first nation to land the missile back in its own tube. https://youtu.be/gNNkRuSw_0Q?t=52

You worked on both the Aegis and the S400? That seems a bit implausible. Or do you mean you worked on one of them and therefore can compare them (without experience of the other)?

No its called comparing capabilities and results just like the F22 is superior to the SU57 no matter what propaganda says

Re: Report deems Russia a pioneer in GPS spoofing attacks

#74

Post by gsich »

angott wrote: post #56
zw123456 wrote: post #38

If I understand it correctly, the spoofing works by replaying the original signal delayed in time but at a higher power so the receiver selects your better spoofed signal. I wonder if it would be possible for the receiver to compute what the appropriate signal level should be and if it is too strong that could be a way of detecting if you are receiving a spoofed signal ?

You could technically do this, but such a technology is too expensive to incorporate in civilian use receivers that have to retail for a couple bucks. Military receivers used by the USA and NATO allies can easily detect spoofing because they listen for signals on separate frequencies reserved for military use, with higher precision. On these frequencies, all traffic is encrypted using a private key that only the DoD…

Just jam the other frequencies.

Re: Report deems Russia a pioneer in GPS spoofing attacks

#75

Post by [deleted] »

angott wrote: post #56
zw123456 wrote: post #38

If I understand it correctly, the spoofing works by replaying the original signal delayed in time but at a higher power so the receiver selects your better spoofed signal. I wonder if it would be possible for the receiver to compute what the appropriate signal level should be and if it is too strong that could be a way of detecting if you are receiving a spoofed signal ?

You could technically do this, but such a technology is too expensive to incorporate in civilian use receivers that have to retail for a couple bucks. Military receivers used by the USA and NATO allies can easily detect spoofing because they listen for signals on separate frequencies reserved for military use, with higher precision. On these frequencies, all traffic is encrypted using a private key that only the DoD…

[deleted]

Re: Report deems Russia a pioneer in GPS spoofing attacks

#76

Post by agapon »

m0zg wrote: post #67
SiempreViernes wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You worked on both the Aegis and the S400? That seems a bit implausible. Or do you mean you worked on one of them and therefore can compare them (without experience of the other)?

Then there's also S500 now, which can shoot down anything that flies, including stealth planes, ballistic missiles, hypersonic planes, and LEO satellites. This is a typical example of asymmetric warfare. The US spends 1.5 trillion building a super plane, Russians spend 1/1000th of that building the thing that can make use of such a plane a costly proposition (even if it can't _reliably_ shoot it down), and offers it…

No, there isn't. It's in designs, at best, or just another pipe dream, at worst.

Re: Report deems Russia a pioneer in GPS spoofing attacks

#77

Post by agapon »

codesnik wrote: post #4

GPS is routinely spoofed in area around Kremlin, for a couple of years already, to a great annoyance of drivers and runners. Coordinates are replaced by those from Vnukovo airport. It seems they try to prevent operations of consumer grade drones, many of them refuse to fly near known airports.

And not only there. It seems that they do it for other places that Putin visits for long periods of time. And that can be used to discover those places: https://twitter.com/billbrowder/status/1114288676408836096

Re: Report deems Russia a pioneer in GPS spoofing attacks

#78

Post by aaron695 »

darkpuma wrote: post #64
codesnik wrote: post #4

GPS is routinely spoofed in area around Kremlin, for a couple of years already, to a great annoyance of drivers and runners. Coordinates are replaced by those from Vnukovo airport. It seems they try to prevent operations of consumer grade drones, many of them refuse to fly near known airports.

Do you know if GLONASS is also being spoofed in these same areas?

Yes.

Grigory Bakunov did some research

https://telegram.me/addmeto (Search on 'GLONASS' on [19.10.16])

Translated in part -

"That's what I found out: somewhere inside the Kremlin there is (and probably is moving) a powerful transmitter. It simulates the operation of the GPS and GLONASS satellite at L1 frequencies and makes noise at L2 and L5 frequencies. "

(Spoofs civilian, blocks military)

He thinks the airport is chosen randomly, not to geo-block drones which is a bit of a strange idea.

"These coordinates can be entered directly or selected from the list offered by the device manufacturer. It so happened that in these lists for Russia appear only the centers of large cities and Airports. As you understand, Vnukovo is the first alphabetically located airport in the Moscow region. And in this version I also believe, of course."

Re: Report deems Russia a pioneer in GPS spoofing attacks

#79

Post by vetinari »

m0zg wrote: post #66
ccnafr wrote: post #3

To be fair, the report is authored by an US entity. I'm sure if they could have studied US operations without losing their funding they would have found similar deployments by US forces, albeit, I think not as widespread. The US has always seemed to have better tech, and GPS spoofing is cheap, from what the article states, which makes it ideal for the cash-bootstrapped Russian military.

I don't see why the US would want to spoof GPS, given that it runs the constellation, and can just re-enable encryption of high precision data ruining it for everybody but the US Military.

We are in the GNSS stage now. Galileo, Glonass and Baidu do not care about what the US does with their constellation.

Re: Report deems Russia a pioneer in GPS spoofing attacks

#80

Post by m0zg »

vetinari wrote: post #79
m0zg wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see why the US would want to spoof GPS, given that it runs the constellation, and can just re-enable encryption of high precision data ruining it for everybody but the US Military.

We are in the GNSS stage now. Galileo, Glonass and Baidu do not care about what the US does with their constellation.

They aren't necessarily spoofable using the same techniques though, or at all. They're all much newer.
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