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Report deems Russia a pioneer in GPS spoofing attacks

zdnet.com

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Re: Report deems Russia a pioneer in GPS spoofing attacks

#61

Post by pps43 »

jhayward wrote: post #23
atemerev wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GPS time is monotonously increasing. If you ignore all messages with timestamps lower than the last one received, and check their digital signatures, you should be protected against replay attacks at least until the next cold restart (or GPS time counter reset, which is once in 20 years). There are other possibilities (CTR/CFB encryption modes, relying on increasing counter and/or previous messages contents). Or am I…

TLDR: you essentially never see repeated time stamps. GPS time is broadcast in the very low bit rate (50 BPS) NAV message, once every 6 seconds. In between the receiver counts at the chip rate (1023 kHz) just counting signal transitions. A rebroadcast attack happens at the speed of light. A signal is received at Moscow airport and is beamed to the Kremlin via some alternate transport path. At the Kremlin the signal i…

Back of the envelope. The distance between Vnukovo airport and Kremlin is 30 km, speed of light is 300,000 km/s, time delay is 10^-4 seconds. Let's say it takes the moving car 100 seconds to get from outside the jamming area to inside. So receiver clock has to drift less than that. A year is pi * 10^7 seconds, so in a year receiver clock should drift by less than pi*10^(7-4-2), or approximately 30 seconds. My wristwatch can do better.

Re: Report deems Russia a pioneer in GPS spoofing attacks

#62

Post by thresh »

Kavu wrote: post #9
lucb1e wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would like to think that, having done research on GPS spoofing and being generally interested in GPS, I would have heard of this before if it were routinely done anywhere in the world. It sounds like you don't have this from an online source but from first-hand experience. Did anyone write this up? Is there local news about it perhaps?

I did not dig up for a detailed technical write up, but have a plenty media sites mentions (sorry for original Russian content): Just news, mentioning this, back to 2016 https://lenta.ru/articles/2016/11/07/gpsoff/ Nice write up, also from 2016 https://meduza.io/feature/2016/10/19/teleportatsiya-iz-kreml... News from Jan, 2018 https://snob.ru/news/156463 Nov, 2018 https://www.vedomosti.ru/politics/news/2018/11/12/786…

That does not happen all the time though. I would say geolocation works nicely pretty much all the time.

Not sure why it's not possible to order a taxi, since you're not supposed to provide your own coordinates but rather a point where you want to be picked up.

Re: Report deems Russia a pioneer in GPS spoofing attacks

#63

Post by walrus01 »

lucb1e wrote: post #8
codesnik wrote: post #4

GPS is routinely spoofed in area around Kremlin, for a couple of years already, to a great annoyance of drivers and runners. Coordinates are replaced by those from Vnukovo airport. It seems they try to prevent operations of consumer grade drones, many of them refuse to fly near known airports.

I would like to think that, having done research on GPS spoofing and being generally interested in GPS, I would have heard of this before if it were routinely done anywhere in the world. It sounds like you don't have this from an online source but from first-hand experience. Did anyone write this up? Is there local news about it perhaps?

there are a number of videos on youtube of people operating handheld android, ios and dedicated gps devices near the kremlin, showing the location displayed on the screen to be many dozens of km away. this will have a similar effect on a $1000 DJI drone.

Re: Report deems Russia a pioneer in GPS spoofing attacks

#64

Post by darkpuma »

codesnik wrote: post #4

GPS is routinely spoofed in area around Kremlin, for a couple of years already, to a great annoyance of drivers and runners. Coordinates are replaced by those from Vnukovo airport. It seems they try to prevent operations of consumer grade drones, many of them refuse to fly near known airports.

Do you know if GLONASS is also being spoofed in these same areas?

Re: Report deems Russia a pioneer in GPS spoofing attacks

#65

Post by SiempreViernes »

blackflame7000 wrote: post #60
wongarsu wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The US has always seemed to have better tech While the US can spend a lot more on its military and has a corresponding lead, the US is mostly focused on offensive technology (like its carrier groups). Russia, being geographically much closer to "enemy" territory, has a much bigger focus on defensive capabilities and excels in many areas. For example the Russian S400 air defense system is usually seen as superior to…

S400 is no where near as good as our Aegis system. I know because I worked on it. The patriot missile did have some spectacular fails though where an anti-missile became confused and shot right into the ground https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YS4i2InVB-Y Although I will give the Russians props for possibly being the first nation to land the missile back in its own tube. https://youtu.be/gNNkRuSw_0Q?t=52

You worked on both the Aegis and the S400? That seems a bit implausible.

Or do you mean you worked on one of them and therefore can compare them (without experience of the other)?

Re: Report deems Russia a pioneer in GPS spoofing attacks

#66

Post by m0zg »

ccnafr wrote: post #3

To be fair, the report is authored by an US entity. I'm sure if they could have studied US operations without losing their funding they would have found similar deployments by US forces, albeit, I think not as widespread. The US has always seemed to have better tech, and GPS spoofing is cheap, from what the article states, which makes it ideal for the cash-bootstrapped Russian military.

I don't see why the US would want to spoof GPS, given that it runs the constellation, and can just re-enable encryption of high precision data ruining it for everybody but the US Military.

Re: Report deems Russia a pioneer in GPS spoofing attacks

#67

Post by m0zg »

SiempreViernes wrote: post #65
blackflame7000 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

S400 is no where near as good as our Aegis system. I know because I worked on it. The patriot missile did have some spectacular fails though where an anti-missile became confused and shot right into the ground https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YS4i2InVB-Y Although I will give the Russians props for possibly being the first nation to land the missile back in its own tube. https://youtu.be/gNNkRuSw_0Q?t=52

You worked on both the Aegis and the S400? That seems a bit implausible. Or do you mean you worked on one of them and therefore can compare them (without experience of the other)?

Then there's also S500 now, which can shoot down anything that flies, including stealth planes, ballistic missiles, hypersonic planes, and LEO satellites. This is a typical example of asymmetric warfare. The US spends 1.5 trillion building a super plane, Russians spend 1/1000th of that building the thing that can make use of such a plane a costly proposition (even if it can't _reliably_ shoot it down), and offers it for export eventually, too.

Re: Report deems Russia a pioneer in GPS spoofing attacks

#68

Post by ndesaulniers »

m0zg wrote: post #67
SiempreViernes wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You worked on both the Aegis and the S400? That seems a bit implausible. Or do you mean you worked on one of them and therefore can compare them (without experience of the other)?

Then there's also S500 now, which can shoot down anything that flies, including stealth planes, ballistic missiles, hypersonic planes, and LEO satellites. This is a typical example of asymmetric warfare. The US spends 1.5 trillion building a super plane, Russians spend 1/1000th of that building the thing that can make use of such a plane a costly proposition (even if it can't _reliably_ shoot it down), and offers it…

Which one they use for shooting down passenger planes over Ukraine?

Re: Report deems Russia a pioneer in GPS spoofing attacks

#69

Post by edaemon »

ndesaulniers wrote: post #68
m0zg wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then there's also S500 now, which can shoot down anything that flies, including stealth planes, ballistic missiles, hypersonic planes, and LEO satellites. This is a typical example of asymmetric warfare. The US spends 1.5 trillion building a super plane, Russians spend 1/1000th of that building the thing that can make use of such a plane a costly proposition (even if it can't _reliably_ shoot it down), and offers it…

Which one they use for shooting down passenger planes over Ukraine?

MH17 was shot down by a Buk missile system, which is a less sophisticated medium-range system.

Re: Report deems Russia a pioneer in GPS spoofing attacks

#70

Post by jhayward »

pps43 wrote: post #61
jhayward wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TLDR: you essentially never see repeated time stamps. GPS time is broadcast in the very low bit rate (50 BPS) NAV message, once every 6 seconds. In between the receiver counts at the chip rate (1023 kHz) just counting signal transitions. A rebroadcast attack happens at the speed of light. A signal is received at Moscow airport and is beamed to the Kremlin via some alternate transport path. At the Kremlin the signal i…

Back of the envelope. The distance between Vnukovo airport and Kremlin is 30 km, speed of light is 300,000 km/s, time delay is 10^-4 seconds. Let's say it takes the moving car 100 seconds to get from outside the jamming area to inside. So receiver clock has to drift less than that. A year is pi * 10^7 seconds, so in a year receiver clock should drift by less than pi*10^(7-4-2), or approximately 30 seconds. My wristwa…

Now please explain, in terms of how GPS receivers operate, how that information helps you defeat spoofing.
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