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Americans Are Delaying Health Care Until Tax Refunds Arrive

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Re: Americans Are Delaying Health Care Until Tax Refunds Arrive

#201

As employers switch to High Deductible Health Plans where insurance doesn't kick in until one has spent a deductible of several thousand dollars, many people are delaying health care in general. A doctor's visit that once cost a co-pay of $30 is now frequently a cash price from $130 to $400, plus more for lab work. With higher costs and much of them unknown in advance, many skip getting things checked until it seems…

I paid 400 dollars to have a doctor tell me to neti pot my nose after having sinus infection for 3 months. Might not be rational but fuck everything about this system. Who is pocketing all this goddamn money?

I just paid $1436 because we took our 1 year old son in when he had a stomach bug and they decided they needed to keep him for 24 hours for observation after giving him an IV to re-hydrate him. Glad he's okay, but if I knew we would be out $1500, I don't know that we would have taken him in.

Re: Americans Are Delaying Health Care Until Tax Refunds Arrive

#202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They still provide no additional cost annual physicals, so you'll get the required yearly screening. Well, until you find out that you can only get the physical for free, and physicals are really not worth much. If you discuss anything at all with your doctor that is outside a routine physical, ask any questions, get any advice, and he codes it when he submits the bill -- it won't be free at all, it'll cost you a c…

If that happens, honestly it is time to get a different doctor. :) Good primary care doctors should be incentivized not to do that as it is a great way to churn patients.

That is a good point. My current doctor hasn't yet done this to me. Past doctors for sure, but my current GP is pretty laid back.

Re: Americans Are Delaying Health Care Until Tax Refunds Arrive

#203
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. If not, the states then get to keep a large amount of money while the feds then do a rougly equal split of tax revenue to states. It's a cheaters' way to basically rob other states to fund your own agenda, and I hate it.

While I think you're right in principle (it makes more sense conceptually to deduct fed tax from the state tax) I think the practice is that most of the high state tax states pay in far more to the government than they receive and the other ones are usually moochers.

Yeah, but that's a consequence of having a redistributive progressive tax system.

Rich, high income states will subsidize poor low income states.

Why it so happens that the rich, high income states these days are liberal with high taxes and the poor ones the opposite, is an interesting question without an obvious answer.

Re: Americans Are Delaying Health Care Until Tax Refunds Arrive

#204
post #186

Why why why do you put up with this in America?? I live in the uk and health has always been free at point of use. The cost is spread amongst all tax payers and costs kept low. I honestly don’t understand why not every single American is screaming for access to health services that are literally on their front lawn. I cannot fathom this is any way shape or form.

Many of these articles exaggerate the price of healthcare in the US. I'm an independent contractor and pay for my own health insurance. My wife and I together cost less that 500/month (universal care would take way more in taxes) Checkups are covered, prescriptions are mostly free or very inexpensive, and if I do have an emergency, I don't need to wait 6 months to get treated, like in the UK or Canada. I also get som…

The distortion from what you say and reality is at comical levels, you might as well be saying the earth is flat. The reality is that the country with the best healthcare quality in the world: Denmark, pays $3,512 per each citizen per year on average for a significantly better health care.

Source: https://www.denverpost.com/2009/09/03/health-care-in-denmark...

Re: Americans Are Delaying Health Care Until Tax Refunds Arrive

#205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I paid 400 dollars to have a doctor tell me to neti pot my nose after having sinus infection for 3 months. Might not be rational but fuck everything about this system. Who is pocketing all this goddamn money?

Through no fault of the author, this comment thread explains the trick. The article talks about US health care access but the discussion quickly goes off into the weeds of the US health insurance market. As soon as we start talking about premiums we adopt business language and metrics and abandon medical language and metrics. All that money is pocketed by businesses run for profit. It's pocketed because it can be. It…

> As soon as we start talking about premiums we adopt business language and metrics and abandon medical language and metrics.

To provide healthcare you need doctors, who need money to pay rent and student loans. You need an office to put the doctors in. You need drugs and medical devices, and researchers to come up with them. You need lawyers to keep the doctors from conducting the Tuskegee Experiment. And nurses and lab techs and janitors etc.

That is all business stuff. Paying employees and managing offices etc. If you don't pay the employees enough then they get another job and quality of care suffers. If you pay them too much then costs get out of hand.

The way you determine how much is the right amount is by letting people choose how much to pay for it. If you have a runny nose and the doctor wants ten million dollars to see you for five minutes, you blow them off as unreasonable and get a different doctor. If you demand to see them for $10 and that isn't enough to cover their costs, they blow you off as unreasonable and get a different patient. Somewhere in the middle there is a price above what it costs and below what it's worth where you neither die of a sinus infection nor sell your first born to have it cured.

There are a lot of reasons this works poorly in the US. Low deductible employer-provided health plans making consumers price insensitive, lack of price transparency, an excessively burdensome FDA approval process that impairs competition between pharma companies, etc. But those are specific failings that could be addressed.

Switching to central planning just adds a new problem without solving the existing ones. If consumers pay nothing, not even actual cost, there is even less incentive to forego unnecessary procedures. Setting prices by committee is a sure way to either overpay (and waste money) or underpay (and get supply shortages). If drug companies still set prices then costs remain high, but if they can't charge the prices they do and still have to go through the same very expensive approval process, you stop getting new drugs. And then you add another trillion tax dollars to the budget which every campaign donor in the country will have a chance to divert a chunk of away from actual medicine and into their own pockets.

> All that money is pocketed by businesses run for profit.

The significant majority of that money typically goes to employees, not shareholders. The costs are too high, but it's not because the average medical practice is turning a huge profit, it's because the existing regulatory environment causes providing medicine to be unnecessarily labor intensive (i.e. inefficient).

Re: Americans Are Delaying Health Care Until Tax Refunds Arrive

#206
post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many of these articles exaggerate the price of healthcare in the US. I'm an independent contractor and pay for my own health insurance. My wife and I together cost less that 500/month (universal care would take way more in taxes) Checkups are covered, prescriptions are mostly free or very inexpensive, and if I do have an emergency, I don't need to wait 6 months to get treated, like in the UK or Canada. I also get som…

That's some blatant misinformation. In Canada you don't wait for treatment. If you need treatment, you will be treated. Stop spreading some garbage myth.

Yeah, is clear him and thousands of others like him around the internet have a very clear agenda posting about how they believe the US health care system is great, that going bankrupt for healthcare services (or dying because they couldn't afford meds[0]) is just an acceptable and normal part of American society.

[0] https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/alex-smith-died-couldnt-af...

Re: Americans Are Delaying Health Care Until Tax Refunds Arrive

#207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. Throughout most of human history families have been able to own their own home . If someone was unable to own their own home they were free to establish a homestead on some unclaimed land. I conclude that the ability to own your own home is part of the social contract. I realize that in many cases the land was technically owned by the gentry but I am talking about the day to day reality.

Throughout most of North American history post-Columbus, sure. The rest of history was what we developed world moderns would call grinding poverty for most people at most times. And the only reason peasants had land (when they did actually own land) is because it was their source of sustenance. It wasn’t the place for idleness that land is for most people in the developed world.

Your average person certainly had less wealth in the past, but it seems to me that they had more independence which is what, at least for me, a home represents.

It seems to me that the social contract implicit in the industrial revolution was that average people gave up some independence (e.g. by being managed in factories rather than being artisans or farmers) in exchange for material prosperity. Now that the material prosperity side of that bargain is breaking down, it's understandable that people are upset.

I don't think the fact that peasants supported themselves through farming is directly relevant since we are talking about where people live not how they work. That is, the fact that they also used their land for their livelihood does not change the fact that they also lived there.

Re: Americans Are Delaying Health Care Until Tax Refunds Arrive

#208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Through no fault of the author, this comment thread explains the trick. The article talks about US health care access but the discussion quickly goes off into the weeds of the US health insurance market. As soon as we start talking about premiums we adopt business language and metrics and abandon medical language and metrics. All that money is pocketed by businesses run for profit. It's pocketed because it can be. It…

You make it sound like the business isn't run by humans. Do you consider price gouging sick people and ethical business to get into? If not, please make that a bit more clear in your comment.

[deleted]

Re: Americans Are Delaying Health Care Until Tax Refunds Arrive

#209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Through no fault of the author, this comment thread explains the trick. The article talks about US health care access but the discussion quickly goes off into the weeds of the US health insurance market. As soon as we start talking about premiums we adopt business language and metrics and abandon medical language and metrics. All that money is pocketed by businesses run for profit. It's pocketed because it can be. It…

> As soon as we start talking about premiums we adopt business language and metrics and abandon medical language and metrics. To provide healthcare you need doctors, who need money to pay rent and student loans. You need an office to put the doctors in. You need drugs and medical devices, and researchers to come up with them. You need lawyers to keep the doctors from conducting the Tuskegee Experiment. And nurses and…

And yet, here we are talking about business instead of health.

Re: Americans Are Delaying Health Care Until Tax Refunds Arrive

#210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As soon as we start talking about premiums we adopt business language and metrics and abandon medical language and metrics. To provide healthcare you need doctors, who need money to pay rent and student loans. You need an office to put the doctors in. You need drugs and medical devices, and researchers to come up with them. You need lawyers to keep the doctors from conducting the Tuskegee Experiment. And nurses and…

And yet, here we are talking about business instead of health.

Because it's a business problem. The problem isn't that doctors don't know what to prescribe when you have an infection, it's that healthcare is so expensive that people can't afford it.
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