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Tech workers are organizing and demanding democracy in the workplace

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Re: Tech workers are organizing and demanding democracy in the workplace

#131

Post by sokoloff »

mc32 wrote: post #125
sokoloff wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should they have such ability? If someone else is ready, willing, and able to do the same job for an overall more attractive package to the company, I believe the work should go there, whether or not it's the work that I used to do or wished I would do next year.

Well because it’s one of the main drivers of layoffs—which is part of job security which is one of the main factors in wanting to unionize in the first place.

I understand the obvious reason they want that ability. That doesn't extend to explaining why a random American technologist is more deserving of (ie "should have a right to") that job than a random other Earth citizen technologist. (I say this as an American technologist.)

Re: Tech workers are organizing and demanding democracy in the workplace

#132

Post by mc32 »

sokoloff wrote: post #131
mc32 wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well because it’s one of the main drivers of layoffs—which is part of job security which is one of the main factors in wanting to unionize in the first place.

I understand the obvious reason they want that ability. That doesn't extend to explaining why a random American technologist is more deserving of (ie "should have a right to") that job than a random other Earth citizen technologist. (I say this as an American technologist.)

Ok then why have these unions at all, if it’s not to add worker rights? A union for the sake of unionizing but not afforded rights to guide how people are hired, fired, furloughed, outsourced, etc., is just a pretense. Can you imagine firefighters’s unions saying, yeah, we don’t care how you reduce costs, you wanna fire us and hire prison labor instead, just do it, we’re good!

Besides, if I lose a job to a worker in Romania, China, India or Brazil, I can’t simply waltz on over there and say “Hey youse all, I just landed, I don’t have a work visa, but you all gotta play fair, gimme a job, you took mine!”

Re: Tech workers are organizing and demanding democracy in the workplace

#133

Post by GreenJelloShot »

cworth wrote: post #118
GreenJelloShot wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In theory, if it all magically worked, then sure. In reality, no. Because no matter the good intentions, I can not trust the government to not screw it up. If a company screws something up, I can just switch jobs and move to another company. If the government screws up, there is little I can do.

The Nordic model shows that it is possible to have a highly unionized workforce with free higher education, free healthcare, and social welfare. They have been very effective in fighting poverty this way.

Yeah, everything "works" until it doesn't.

See: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/08/finlands-government-resigns-...

"Financial constraints are colliding with the healthcare costs imposed by Finland’s fast-aging population. But cutting those costs is a major political obstacle in a Nordic country that historically has provided an extensive -- and expensive -- healthcare system."

Re: Tech workers are organizing and demanding democracy in the workplace

#134

Post by GreenJelloShot »

adreamingsoul wrote: post #116
GreenJelloShot wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In theory, if it all magically worked, then sure. In reality, no. Because no matter the good intentions, I can not trust the government to not screw it up. If a company screws something up, I can just switch jobs and move to another company. If the government screws up, there is little I can do.

Move to another country?

While theoretically possible, I do not see this solution scaling well for the majority of a population.

Re: Tech workers are organizing and demanding democracy in the workplace

#135

Post by veryworried »

linuxftw wrote: post #77
veryworried wrote: post #25

Unions for tech workers are ridiculous. We’re not coal miners, we are highly skilled white collar professionals that should be more than capable of finding work that suits us without extra regulatory bullshit. I find the people who are clamoring for unions in tech are among the least talented and skilled of employees, and they should probably find a new industry entirely instead of trying to change the one they’re in…

> I find the people who are clamoring for unions in tech are among the least talented and skilled of employees, and they should probably find a new industry entirely instead of trying to change the one they’re in to be more hospitable to the lowest common denominators. That's one perspective, sure. Here's another perspective: There's nothing stopping a company from firing it's junior and 'least talented and skilled'…

The company has a right to hire contractors or outsource work.

Re: Tech workers are organizing and demanding democracy in the workplace

#136

Post by sokoloff »

mc32 wrote: post #132
sokoloff wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand the obvious reason they want that ability. That doesn't extend to explaining why a random American technologist is more deserving of (ie "should have a right to") that job than a random other Earth citizen technologist. (I say this as an American technologist.)

Ok then why have these unions at all, if it’s not to add worker rights? A union for the sake of unionizing but not afforded rights to guide how people are hired, fired, furloughed, outsourced, etc., is just a pretense. Can you imagine firefighters’s unions saying, yeah, we don’t care how you reduce costs, you wanna fire us and hire prison labor instead, just do it, we’re good! Besides, if I lose a job to a worker in…

It’s a reasonably safe bet to conclude that I’m not a union supporter for technology jobs.

Re: Tech workers are organizing and demanding democracy in the workplace

#137

Post by mc32 »

sokoloff wrote: post #136
mc32 wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok then why have these unions at all, if it’s not to add worker rights? A union for the sake of unionizing but not afforded rights to guide how people are hired, fired, furloughed, outsourced, etc., is just a pretense. Can you imagine firefighters’s unions saying, yeah, we don’t care how you reduce costs, you wanna fire us and hire prison labor instead, just do it, we’re good! Besides, if I lose a job to a worker in…

It’s a reasonably safe bet to conclude that I’m not a union supporter for technology jobs.

I’m not sure it’s a good fit either. I’ve had to interface with unionized tech workers and getting routine things done took extra effort.

My point is that if they institute a union it then should also be a strong union that looks after its workers.

Re: Tech workers are organizing and demanding democracy in the workplace

#138

Post by appleiigs »

adreamingsoul wrote: post #115
appleiigs wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been through the ringer... I'm in my 40s and at the point in my life where if you'd pay me good money to dig holes, then I'd dig holes. I go to where ever pays me the most to dig. I don't identify myself by where I work at. I don't expect other people to have my values, and definitely don't have those expectations on a corporation. I have this mercenary attitude because I know that I'm solely responsible for mys…

On one hand, I think it's unfortunate that a society has to have a mindset of self preservation. On the other, I think individuals should be self-sufficient and responsible for themselves. What happens when you can't take care of yourself? What happens when a series of unfortunate events interfere with your ability to dig those holes? Who then will be responsible for you? You mentioned you have a problem with sociali…

You don't need to take my word for it... study history and economics.

Re: Tech workers are organizing and demanding democracy in the workplace

#139

Post by sctb »

maccio92 wrote: post #6

[flagged]

Could you please pause and review the guidelines? We're here for thoughtful, informative discussion, and another turn on the socialism-is-cancer not-so-merry-go-round is not that.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Tech workers are organizing and demanding democracy in the workplace

#140

Post by ranie93 »

mises wrote: post #91
scarmig wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We live in a nation founded on the basis of property rights. Assuming you live in the United States, do you mean the right to enslave people and take their labor? Or the right to kill people and take their land?

Care to clarify? I was never alive at either of those times, nor were my predecessors (all immigrated legally after that). I and my family have fairly earned what we have. I agree there were past issues, but socialism/communism is worse in that it keeps taking every year after. And none of what you mentioned is a free market.

>I agree there were past issues,

Are there current issues as well? [1][2]

A main point is this (and I think its been mentioned elsewhere in this thread as well):

An attack on the status-quo is not a promotion of socialism

Our current implementations are a far cry from a free market. The entrenched powers and corporations don't want free markets-- its socialism for the rich, capitalism for the poor [3] [4]

We'd have to start from scratch to attain a free market. And even then, the oft-quoted invisible hand of competitive markets falls flat in an increasingly opaque, complex world [5]

It seems to me that you have a strong sense of what is fair. I urge you to look out into all the wealth of information we have and take a hard look to see if our current way of being is fair [6][7]

[1] https://poverty.umich.edu/research-projects/policy-briefs/ri...

[2]https://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/sdn/2015/sdn1513.pdf

[3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_Economic_Stabilizati...

[4]https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/07/social-...

[5]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efficient-market_hypothesis

[6]https://www.epi.org/productivity-pay-gap/

[7]https://vimeo.com/129550053

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