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Tech workers are organizing and demanding democracy in the workplace

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Re: Tech workers are organizing and demanding democracy in the workplace

#111

Post by okmokmz »

durnygbur wrote: post #103
okmokmz wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>seniority and respect of your peers is not transferable between companies, that hopping to the next job from the job board is vicious circle of working of dull dead end projects under authocratic and dumb at times people (with long length of service at the company) I haven't found this to be the case at all. I know many people who jump companies every 3 years or so, make more money each time they change, get to work…

Significant payrise on switching jobs is a thing in Europe only until mid-level perhaps, above that it's on pair with regular payrise and is absolutely not compensating the stress of adapting to the new working environment. The salary ceiling is disappointingly low. Don't even think about launching own business - unless one manages to chime in into the supply chains for DACH, Scandinavian, or French economies' supply…

Fair; my experience is limited to the US tech industry

Re: Tech workers are organizing and demanding democracy in the workplace

#112

Post by dragonwriter »

mises wrote: post #105
lixtra wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what right have you to the fruits of my labor? You mentioned the constitution so you agree that some effort has to be made to enforce it. This effort has to be paid for by tax on your labor. Once you agree on that you only haggle if it is more tax efficient to put someone in jail for stealing a pizza or handing out free pizza. You’re free to take part in this democratic process.

The constitution has been enforced via tax, yes, but I would argue that income tax is (or was and ought to be) unconstitutional (and wrong) and amendment XVI was an overt power grab. Sales tax, excise tax, sin tax, road toll, pick some other way. The goal is not tax efficiency but upholding the most basic freedoms guaranteed in the Bill of Rights and performing the very few duties specifically outlined in the Constit…

> Point me to the clause in the Constitution where it says anyone has a right to healthcare or that the federal government is allowed to dispense it.

The latter, and it's the militia clause read together with the elastic clause. Arguably, depending on whether one views health status identification and health maintenance as more essential to training or organization of the universal militia, it may require the states to operate as delivery intermediaries, but it certainly allows federal funding.

Re: Tech workers are organizing and demanding democracy in the workplace

#113

Post by adreamingsoul »

jogjayr wrote: post #92
adreamingsoul wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, you are popular now but in 10-20 years after you’ve been through the wringer a couple times the concept of a tech union might make more sense. EDIT: changed "ringer" to "wringer".

Unrelated, but it's "through the wringer" not "ringer". A "wringer" being something that wrings your clothes out i.e. puts a great amount of stress and force on them. Sorry for being annoying and pedantic :-(

AH, my mistake and thank you. I was wondering about that spelling but obviously I didn't take the time to double check.

Ringer[1] 1. a person or thing that encircles, rings, etc. 2. a quoit or horseshoe so thrown as to encircle the peg. 3. the throw itself. 4. Also ring·ers. Also called ring taw. Marbles . a game in which players place marbles in a cross marked in the center of a circle, the object being to knock as many marbles as possible outside the circle by using another marble shooter. 5. Australian . a highly skilled sheep shearer.

[1] https://www.dictionary.com/browse/ringer

Re: Tech workers are organizing and demanding democracy in the workplace

#114

Post by GreenJelloShot »

cworth wrote: post #94
appleiigs wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been through the ringer... I'm in my 40s and at the point in my life where if you'd pay me good money to dig holes, then I'd dig holes. I go to where ever pays me the most to dig. I don't identify myself by where I work at. I don't expect other people to have my values, and definitely don't have those expectations on a corporation. I have this mercenary attitude because I know that I'm solely responsible for mys…

It sounds like you are mixing the positive and normative. Yes, corporations now don't represent the values of their workers and lobby for all kinds of awful things. Yes, there is no social net now provided by unions or the government in the United States. But wouldn't it be excellent if these things were true?

In theory, if it all magically worked, then sure. In reality, no. Because no matter the good intentions, I can not trust the government to not screw it up.

If a company screws something up, I can just switch jobs and move to another company. If the government screws up, there is little I can do.

Re: Tech workers are organizing and demanding democracy in the workplace

#115

Post by adreamingsoul »

appleiigs wrote: post #72
adreamingsoul wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, you are popular now but in 10-20 years after you’ve been through the wringer a couple times the concept of a tech union might make more sense. EDIT: changed "ringer" to "wringer".

I've been through the ringer... I'm in my 40s and at the point in my life where if you'd pay me good money to dig holes, then I'd dig holes. I go to where ever pays me the most to dig. I don't identify myself by where I work at. I don't expect other people to have my values, and definitely don't have those expectations on a corporation. I have this mercenary attitude because I know that I'm solely responsible for mys…

On one hand, I think it's unfortunate that a society has to have a mindset of self preservation. On the other, I think individuals should be self-sufficient and responsible for themselves.

What happens when you can't take care of yourself? What happens when a series of unfortunate events interfere with your ability to dig those holes? Who then will be responsible for you?

You mentioned you have a problem with socialism, have you experienced and lived in socialism? I haven't and have no actual experience of what is good or bad about it. Do you have any concrete examples of why socialism is bad?

Re: Tech workers are organizing and demanding democracy in the workplace

#116

Post by adreamingsoul »

GreenJelloShot wrote: post #114
cworth wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like you are mixing the positive and normative. Yes, corporations now don't represent the values of their workers and lobby for all kinds of awful things. Yes, there is no social net now provided by unions or the government in the United States. But wouldn't it be excellent if these things were true?

In theory, if it all magically worked, then sure. In reality, no. Because no matter the good intentions, I can not trust the government to not screw it up. If a company screws something up, I can just switch jobs and move to another company. If the government screws up, there is little I can do.

Move to another country?

Re: Tech workers are organizing and demanding democracy in the workplace

#117

Post by GreenJelloShot »

appleiigs wrote: post #72
adreamingsoul wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, you are popular now but in 10-20 years after you’ve been through the wringer a couple times the concept of a tech union might make more sense. EDIT: changed "ringer" to "wringer".

I've been through the ringer... I'm in my 40s and at the point in my life where if you'd pay me good money to dig holes, then I'd dig holes. I go to where ever pays me the most to dig. I don't identify myself by where I work at. I don't expect other people to have my values, and definitely don't have those expectations on a corporation. I have this mercenary attitude because I know that I'm solely responsible for mys…

> If you are going to expect that a union, corporation or a government take care of you, then you are going to be very disappointed.

As a fellow tech worker who have been through the wringer many times, I can confirm this is absolutely true.

Re: Tech workers are organizing and demanding democracy in the workplace

#118

Post by cworth »

GreenJelloShot wrote: post #114
cworth wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like you are mixing the positive and normative. Yes, corporations now don't represent the values of their workers and lobby for all kinds of awful things. Yes, there is no social net now provided by unions or the government in the United States. But wouldn't it be excellent if these things were true?

In theory, if it all magically worked, then sure. In reality, no. Because no matter the good intentions, I can not trust the government to not screw it up. If a company screws something up, I can just switch jobs and move to another company. If the government screws up, there is little I can do.

The Nordic model shows that it is possible to have a highly unionized workforce with free higher education, free healthcare, and social welfare. They have been very effective in fighting poverty this way.

Re: Tech workers are organizing and demanding democracy in the workplace

#120

Post by njepa »

GaltMidas wrote: post #13
ycHatesFreeSpch wrote: post #4

Socialism aside, the unionization of tech workers is extremely important. Failing this, they will be exploited at every damn job. Unions exist in local governments, so why not at private firms too. It's time to organize. A lot of CEOs and CTOs will hate this idea, of course, and will do anything to make you believe otherwise.

I'm 46 years old. I can't think of one example where I was exploited as a tech worker. I'm from a union town, grew up in a union family. I support unions. The UAW was very important to the country and the middle class. I'm just not sure where the need is in tech. I think it might hurt us, if anything. Tech workers are not fungible. We do have quite a bit of leverage. Your average factory floor worker is fungible and…

Tech workers face the same issues as most white collar workers. It's common to be unfairly treated in regards to promotions, workload, overtime etc. But the biggest issue is probably equity. It would probably be worth unionizing just over that.
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