Great developers are raised, not hired • Hacker News Board

Re: Great developers are raised, not hired

#121

Post by dfrage » Fri, Apr 12, 2019, 5:59 PM UTC

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #111

dfrage wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Professional developers achieve job security by doing great work and making themselves replaceable. Wouldn't that be "achieve career security"? Because as I attest upstream in this subthread, in my most notable example of being a mentor, I was indeed fired as soon as my non-technical salesman background CEO decided I was replaceable. Although he didn't realize that wasn't quite yet true, and the mentee decided to l…

> I don't know about Estonia, but in the US conventional careers as a software developer start ending when you're in your 30s, with 40 being a hard limit in finding a new conventional job because that's when our national age discrimination law kicks in. In the US, I found a new developer job at 43, and another at 47. Haven't looked in a decade, so I don't know how it goes at 57. Caveat: I'm in embedded systems, which…

As you say, you're in embedded systems, that's well known to be the other US employment domain that's friendly to developers with grey hairs. Not a "conventional" field.

Re: Great developers are raised, not hired

#122

Post by wallacoloo » Fri, Apr 12, 2019, 6:01 PM UTC

JustSomeNobody wrote: post #41

amarkman wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem in tech companies is arrogant and clueless management that treats developers like dirt and blames them for everything.

Trust me, there are arrogant developers out there and they suck to work with. They treat code and design reviews as chest beating exercises. They refuse to work on anything remotely legacy. If their idea or design gets questioned in any way they get loud and obnoxious. You can't mentor these devs at all.

I agree with all but the last sentence. Every dev has a different background. Every dev needs to adjust to a different style of work wherever they go. Some will figure it out on their own. For the rest, I find it hard to believe that adding a mentor into the picture doesn’t improve the odds.

Re: Great developers are raised, not hired

#123

Post by scruple » Fri, Apr 12, 2019, 6:06 PM UTC

rb808 wrote: post #79

> Your mentees will support you and promote you for the rest of your life. The problem I've seen is that this is rarely true. We've had a big set of grads we've trained that quit for a 20% pay rise, or a project that they happen to like better. Many regretted it but it didnt stop the next guys from doing the same. I'm really burnt out over teaching green newbies again and again.

It's absolutely challenging when you're mentoring people and work starts to look like a revolving door. I've learned over time to reframe my thinking around mentoring and I believe that it has led me to a better place (or, I'm perfectly willing to accept that perhaps I've just deluded myself).

I mentor the juniors and intermediates on my team (and others in the company), but I also consider the activity to be a sort of mentorship for myself, in an abstract way. By mentoring, I'm frequently discovering better ways to teach and better ways to learn. I also seek their feedback about designs and code on the spot and those conversations that I have, with people who aren't encumbered by a lengthy career in technology, help me keep a sort of "beginner's mind," as it were.

The primary motivators that most people appear to have when they talk about mentorship, i.e., tangible benefits to the company, on-boarding, leveling up juniors, etc... are the side-effects to me. The primary motivator that I have when I mentor others is instead the learning and growth, career and otherwise, that I get to experience that would otherwise be off limits to me.

edit/ words.

Re: Great developers are raised, not hired

#124

Post by chillacy » Fri, Apr 12, 2019, 6:06 PM UTC

madrix999 wrote: post #83

chrisseaton wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why don't you match their pay rise? Or give them projects they're more keen to work on?

Cant lower the CEO's paycheck 8) (mostly serious sarcasm)

Put yourself in the shoes of the board of directors and you'll find they too don't want to overpay for CEOs. But paychecks are market driven, and lowering the pay means you'll end up with a less experienced or worse CEO.

Re: Great developers are raised, not hired

#125

Post by maxxxxx » Fri, Apr 12, 2019, 6:08 PM UTC

theothermelissa wrote: post #101

maxxxxx wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It takes me around 4 weeks to figure out if someone can grow or not. There are exceptions though. Some people are almost traumatized by previous jobs so they need some time to learn that it's OK for them to grow.

As a junior developer currently looking for a role on a great team, I'm curious about your process. Why does it take ~ four weeks, and what are some of the markers that tell you 'yep, this is a great candidate who'll grow quickly'?

I usually give new people a task I understand fairly well myself, that they don't know much about but can easily be researched because it's well documented. So I expect someone to research the problem, develop some level of understanding and then be able to discuss options. I don't like it when people copy a piece of StackOverflow code and don't understand it.

I also prefer people who are naturally curious about tech vs people who just want to do the job. I don't like overtime but I like to discuss and try new ideas during working hours.

Re: Great developers are raised, not hired

#126

Post by trailingZeroes » Fri, Apr 12, 2019, 6:08 PM UTC

I agree with the headline and not much else.

Okay. I'm fine with agreeing with the notion that good, productive engineers can result from good environments.

But that doesn't mean hiring 'broken toys' is a good idea. This article's message is 'Can't find anyone good? That's okay! Hire someone anyway and mentor them!'

Turn this stone into a diamond!' Okay. Some stones don't turn into diamonds. Gee...if only there was some sort of process that can help determine which people are capable of being a good engineer. Maybe companies can do something like asking some basic questions about a candidate's ability. Something like a filtering process.

'The pond is empty.' Pfff. No it's not. If no one's biting at the rod, it's because of shitty bait.

Re: Great developers are raised, not hired

#127

Post by dfrage » Fri, Apr 12, 2019, 6:19 PM UTC

projektir wrote: post #120

So many developers here downright scared to mentor others. The problem with the current job market on full display.

We have to live in the world as it is, rather than what we'd like it to be. The well reported in this discussion patterns of your boss trying to replace you with your mentee, getting dinged for not getting "real work" done, and mentees not staying in the company for very long should give anyone pause.

Re: Great developers are raised, not hired

#128

Post by LolNoGenerics » Fri, Apr 12, 2019, 6:22 PM UTC

msluyter wrote: post #20

I officially mentored someone at my previous company and helped him move from a support tech role into a software dev position. It was incredibly rewarding. But to play devil's advocate for a moment, isn't there something of a natural disincentive to level up one's employees in such a tight labor market? To follow the author's analogy, by mentoring someone, we're effectively "adding a fish" to the pond, and if someon…

I don't think everyone leaves with the next best salary upgrade if you pay fair. Leveling up a junior should be rewarded in time. Part of the mentoring is to teach them how to fight for your upgrade, right?

Good culture is good, but no culture fits all personalities.

In the end you probably have to accept that some portion of mentees will leave and try to minimize the rate.

What I would be afraid of that grown up juniors may get stuck in their learning environment and remain junior for way too long.

Re: Great developers are raised, not hired

#129

Post by teknologist » Fri, Apr 12, 2019, 6:26 PM UTC

A “self-confident rockstar“ is just a developer who has been through this process of self-development and no longer requires the mentoring and extra effort to get them there.

I appreciate that some companies value experienced developers and aren’t trying to nickel and dime by finding “broken toys” so to speak that they can force into their own moulds on the cheap

Re: Great developers are raised, not hired

#130

Post by cookiecaper » Fri, Apr 12, 2019, 6:27 PM UTC

chillacy wrote: post #118

chrisseaton wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why don't you match their pay rise? Or give them projects they're more keen to work on?

Assuming a perfect market (or good enough market), you could just raise the pay for the position and hire someone experienced enough to justify that price rather than grow someone into that role. Otherwise said, at-will employment doesn't incentivize intensely investing in growing people.

The market incentivizes this behavior perfectly well. People are just unwilling to admit the true cost of turnover, mostly for psychological reasons. There's a lot of ego to protect when a colleague says "I'd rather work somewhere else".