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Great developers are raised, not hired

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Re: Great developers are raised, not hired

#101

Post by theothermelissa »

maxxxxx wrote: post #49
astura wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience, as a mentor: Quite a lot of people are certainly capable of growing, but many (most?) aren't. Either they aren't capable, or they don't feel like it. Luckily you can almost always tell from the get-go who will grow and who will stagnate.

It takes me around 4 weeks to figure out if someone can grow or not. There are exceptions though. Some people are almost traumatized by previous jobs so they need some time to learn that it's OK for them to grow.

As a junior developer currently looking for a role on a great team, I'm curious about your process. Why does it take ~ four weeks, and what are some of the markers that tell you 'yep, this is a great candidate who'll grow quickly'?

Re: Great developers are raised, not hired

#102

Post by eu »

rb808 wrote: post #79

> Your mentees will support you and promote you for the rest of your life. The problem I've seen is that this is rarely true. We've had a big set of grads we've trained that quit for a 20% pay rise, or a project that they happen to like better. Many regretted it but it didnt stop the next guys from doing the same. I'm really burnt out over teaching green newbies again and again.

There is a saying about getting a raise: The only way up is out.

Re: Great developers are raised, not hired

#103

Post by crdoconnor »

rb808 wrote: post #79

> Your mentees will support you and promote you for the rest of your life. The problem I've seen is that this is rarely true. We've had a big set of grads we've trained that quit for a 20% pay rise, or a project that they happen to like better. Many regretted it but it didnt stop the next guys from doing the same. I'm really burnt out over teaching green newbies again and again.

Of the people I've mentored I usually remain friends after we've both left the company.

The relationships I've formed with people have always been more valuable than the relationships I've had with companies.

Re: Great developers are raised, not hired

#104

Post by jsty »

rb808 wrote: post #79

> Your mentees will support you and promote you for the rest of your life. The problem I've seen is that this is rarely true. We've had a big set of grads we've trained that quit for a 20% pay rise, or a project that they happen to like better. Many regretted it but it didnt stop the next guys from doing the same. I'm really burnt out over teaching green newbies again and again.

In fairness, all other things being equal, wouldn't you move for a 20% pay rise? Especially at the more junior level, where that kind of increase could probably afford them a significant boost in living standards.

Re: Great developers are raised, not hired

#105

Post by hnuser355 »

salarycommenter wrote: post #72
dfrage wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sure they were willing to match, but who wants to try and soak blood from a stone. I've never tried it myself, but it's supposed to be common knowledge that perhaps more than half the time a company is forced into granting you a raise to match an offer you have in hand, they're only doing it long enough to arrange replacing you. There are certainly many reported exceptions to this, but why take a chance with a comp…

I am very wary of making this about respect or the individuals in the company who didn't grant you better compensation. It's toxic for yourself and if other people find out you think that way it can spoil relationships. Never underestimate how the people you work with at your old jobs can end up being stepping stones to bigger and better things later on. I believe no one in my management chain could have done signifi…

I agree. No need to make it emotional and confrontational with a “respect” interpretation in my opinion. Of course this is hard but if I can do it I imagine the best approach will be to simply make the best choices for my career while recognizing management has their own bizarre incentives I will never understand.

Re: Great developers are raised, not hired

#106

Post by dfrage »

salarycommenter wrote: post #72
dfrage wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sure they were willing to match, but who wants to try and soak blood from a stone. I've never tried it myself, but it's supposed to be common knowledge that perhaps more than half the time a company is forced into granting you a raise to match an offer you have in hand, they're only doing it long enough to arrange replacing you. There are certainly many reported exceptions to this, but why take a chance with a comp…

I am very wary of making this about respect or the individuals in the company who didn't grant you better compensation. It's toxic for yourself and if other people find out you think that way it can spoil relationships. Never underestimate how the people you work with at your old jobs can end up being stepping stones to bigger and better things later on. I believe no one in my management chain could have done signifi…

The bottom line the US is that respect is ultimately measured in dollars. I won't argue there isn't some toxicity to that, but a company that doesn't reward the vastly increased value of its developer employees as they move from entry level to journeymen to experts will suffer greatly from it, often fatally.

If employers can't afford market salaries, they should think very hard about the issue and see if they can't address it in other way, or accept that they're going to deserve and get no loyalty from most of their employees.

Re: Great developers are raised, not hired

#107

Post by salarycommenter »

luminati wrote: post #88
salarycommenter wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Currently switching jobs for a personal record 57% increase in total compensation. And I was NOT poorly compensated before. I was already in the 99th percentile for individual income. The harder I push on comp the more I get each time. I am not going to lie and say that it didn't take years to build to this point in terms of skill, work record, professional network, and interview ability. It took three FAANG companie…

Off topic - but your username and the vast majority of your commenting history is primarily on salaries. Curious - is there some backstory to it? Feel you got severely underpaid? To each and his own, but bay area engineers pissing about making ONLY 300K has always come off as being a bunch of spoilt brats - especially considering the vast majority just gem/npm/pip install this and that and glue all the code together.…

This is an alt specifically for discussing compensation because I know it elicits that reaction and I don't want that associated with my professional identity.

I think discussing compensation frankly and openly is very important. People have no idea what is possible. Two people on the same team at the same company can have wildly different compensation. My goal with this alt is to get people to take the biggest slice of the pie they can for themselves and avoid wasting their precious time doing lousy work for lousy money.

I have wasted a lot of time and life opportunities working for less then what I am capable of getting. I wish my future self had been around to tell me to push harder and be more mindful and efficient with my time.

I don't think CRUD glue programmers are at the top of the market right now. You could flood the market with them and it might not move compensation for people in my space. Even so, that is just another argument for pushing hard right now. Strike while the iron is hot. No one knows how long this will last.

Re: Great developers are raised, not hired

#108

Post by rhizome »

chrisseaton wrote: post #89
rb808 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd love to give everyone around me huge pay rises each year and only work on really fun new projects but unfortunately the boss doesn't agree. :)

Right but you're already paying out the money it sounds like, in terms of burnout and churn in employees. 20% could be cheaper. And I guess people are grateful for training, but not if they're effectively paying 17% of their pay for that training indefinitely. They'd be idiots to take that deal.

Can't afford a good raise, but can afford to spend 60% of their time interviewing people every 6mos. Does anybody track the lost wages from the hiring process as a cost of employee churn?

Re: Great developers are raised, not hired

#109

Post by cookiecaper »

rb808 wrote: post #86
chrisseaton wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why don't you match their pay rise? Or give them projects they're more keen to work on?

I'd love to give everyone around me huge pay rises each year and only work on really fun new projects but unfortunately the boss doesn't agree. :)

You should be following their lead. There is no reason to expect mentees to stick around for a long time if they can go command a meaningful salary and quality-of-life bump somewhere else.

I understand the psychology around not putting more resources into your existing staff -- it's basically "why buy the cow when you're getting the milk for free?" -- but as long as this "5% per year is a great raise!" crap is going around, no one a) upper-mid-level or lower; with b) market value; and c) corresponding self-esteem; is going to stay in a specific job more than 2-3 years. There's no reason to expect anything else. If this is going to change, companies are going to have to start working hard to curb the "impulse buy" psychology at work in racing to get $BUZZWORDY_CANDIDATE_X.

Despite this, there is great personal value in mentoring people. You learn a lot and establish a supportive substructure within the community. It's better to have your mentees move around. That way, they can throw you an escape line if you need it.

People who stay at one company for too long end up with a rusty skillset and a heavily distorted perspective on how things operate. Companies may not notice it, but their cheapness is probably a much better thing for the goose than it is for the gander. Circulation is healthy.

Re: Great developers are raised, not hired

#110

Post by vonmoltke »

rhizome wrote: post #108
chrisseaton wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right but you're already paying out the money it sounds like, in terms of burnout and churn in employees. 20% could be cheaper. And I guess people are grateful for training, but not if they're effectively paying 17% of their pay for that training indefinitely. They'd be idiots to take that deal.

Can't afford a good raise, but can afford to spend 60% of their time interviewing people every 6mos. Does anybody track the lost wages from the hiring process as a cost of employee churn?

Don't forget "can afford to pay replacements 20% more after people quit".
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