Congress Is About to Ban the US Government from Offering Free Online Tax Filing • Hacker News Board

Re: Congress Is About to Ban the US Government from Offering Free Online Tax Filing

#651

Post by AnssiH » Wed, Apr 10, 2019, 4:26 PM UTC

andrewla wrote: post #118

fsloth wrote: post #25

Oh man, I've had government provided automatic filings for ages now (Finland). US is really odd how it emphasizes the benefit of the middleman over the benefit of the individual citizen (it seems). Or have I completely misunderstood what's going on here?

Out of curiosity, do you have insight on how this evolved? Did the government go from requiring paper to offering an electronic equivalent? In the US, the IRS supported an e-file system that basically allowed electronic versions of forms to be submitted, but it was arcane enough that a cottage industry developed to assist users in prepping documents for e-file. How does Finland support tax preparation services; what…

> Out of curiosity, do you have insight on how this evolved? Did the government go from requiring paper to offering an electronic equivalent?

The "tax return suggestion" was introduced in 1996. So it predates all electronic filing.

Filling tax returns via a web service became available in 2008.

The first (non-web) electronic tax filings were made in 1997, but those were for corporate returns. Not sure when it became available for income tax returns (that use case is rare here).

Source: Finnish Tax Administration https://www.vero.fi/contentassets/09b6f07e61dd490ab0caabba8e... (Finnish PDF)

> How does Finland support tax preparation services; what sort of facilities do they offer for people filing on behalf of others?

Electronic tax filing using files is available: https://www.ilmoitin.fi/webtamo/sivut/Esittelysivu?kieli=en

You can use an online service to authorize another person to file your taxes: https://www.vero.fi/en/About-us/contact-us/efil/authorisatio...

The other person can then file using paper, file, or web.

Re: Congress Is About to Ban the US Government from Offering Free Online Tax Filing

#652

Post by Sutanreyu » Wed, Apr 10, 2019, 4:27 PM UTC

Can we not?

Re: Congress Is About to Ban the US Government from Offering Free Online Tax Filing

#653

Post by magduf » Wed, Apr 10, 2019, 4:30 PM UTC

onefuncman wrote: post #571

onetimemanytime wrote: post #501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Conspiracy theory: what if IRS (the Govt) when designing the free software with all the options--thousands and thousands of pages https://www.politifact.com/missouri/statements/2017/oct/17/r... --lean on the side of the government when in doubt? Intuit, HR Block etc have some sort of guarantee and incentive to save users, IRS not so much. Doesn't even have to be a conspiracy theory ("We need the money so let's make t…

The IRS outsources the development of the free software. All the IRS does is publish the tax code in a specific XML format. MEF (mechanized e-file) is the interchange specification. It's rather a shame there's not more open source effort around tax filings...

>It's rather a shame there's not more open source effort around tax filings...

This is one place where FOSS just isn't going to work. Let me ask you: are you willing to invest a lot of your time and effort into contributing to such a project? No, I didn't think so. Me neither.

Here's the problems with it: 1) It's not very fun. Volunteer coders don't want to work on something as deadly-boring as tax filing. 2) It's USA-only: lots of FOSS volunteers are outside the US. They're not going to spend their time on a tax tool they're not going to use. 3) It's constantly changing. The tax code changes every single year. Lots of FOSS projects become mature at some point, and only get maintenance or occasional feature additions. Most do not work according to a schedule. The IRS requires you to file your taxes on April 15, and they release the changes to the tax code a certain amount of time before that, so a project would only have a certain window of time to incorporate all these changes. 4) The risk to users is high, since there's no one really willing to guarantee this product. Of course, bugs in tax-prep software don't absolve taxpayers, but there's still a certain appearance that a big company standing behind a product makes it safer.

Re: Congress Is About to Ban the US Government from Offering Free Online Tax Filing

#654

Post by tptacek » Wed, Apr 10, 2019, 4:33 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #387

hobs wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If republicans wanted to make a system where people would save the most money we'd just reduce the tax loopholes and simplify the system - the system we have now actually only has the wealthy pay the least money. Some would say the republicans think this is a feature.

This is not true. There are tons of bread-and-butter deductions for the middle class. If you do a cross country comparison of taxes, the biggest difference between the US and Europe is not the rich. It’s the folks making $40-100k, where our low brackets plus tons of deductions (mortgage interest, child care, child credits, etc.) drive the effective tax rate way down

Just a note that the mortgage income deduction, which is a travesty, benefits high-earners far more than low-earners; something like 70% of its benefits accrue to the upper class.

Re: Congress Is About to Ban the US Government from Offering Free Online Tax Filing

#655

Post by mbrameld » Wed, Apr 10, 2019, 4:35 PM UTC

arkades wrote: post #273

mattferderer wrote: post #265

If I read this right, you can still use the free service the IRS provides if you make less than $66,000. Has anyone used Turbo Tax or H&R "free" versions to file? I can't use them & last time I tried they charged you to submit your taxes electronically but otherwise it was simple & easy. I also know many cities offer services to help people file simple taxes for free. I believe this bill also states the IRS cannot se…

> If I read this right, you can still use the free service the IRS provides if you make less than $66,000. You did not. You can contact the private companies such as H&R Block and request Their free service if you make less than 66k - and subject yourself to their upselling and scam artistry, to try and get you to pay anything more than "free." > I don't expect the IRS to make software for complicated taxes as that's…

> You did not. You can contact the private companies such as H&R Block and request Their free service if you make less than 66k - and subject yourself to their upselling and scam artistry, to try and get you to pay anything more than "free."

I went back to school full-time for most of last year to get some helicopter ratings and didn't have much taxable income, so I used the free H&R Block service.

There was exactly 1 attempt at an upsell, and it was at the very beginning of the process where I was told if I used the free service I would have to enter all of my information but if I used the paid service they could pull my information from prior filings to save me some time.

Was your experience with one of the free programs different?

Re: Congress Is About to Ban the US Government from Offering Free Online Tax Filing

#656

Post by benj111 » Wed, Apr 10, 2019, 5:01 PM UTC

conanbatt wrote: post #603

benj111 wrote: post #496

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"becomes too easy for the government to nearly invisibly turn up the tax rate" Or not. Source. I live in a country where the vast majority have income taxes handled by their employer. It would still be front page news if income tax rates increased or decreased. Painful transparency is just pain.

How much are income taxes in your country compared to the US?

Its UK, so between 20% and 45%.

Re: Congress Is About to Ban the US Government from Offering Free Online Tax Filing

#657

Post by benj111 » Wed, Apr 10, 2019, 5:04 PM UTC

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #537

benj111 wrote: post #496

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"becomes too easy for the government to nearly invisibly turn up the tax rate" Or not. Source. I live in a country where the vast majority have income taxes handled by their employer. It would still be front page news if income tax rates increased or decreased. Painful transparency is just pain.

It would be front page news for a day then people would forget and you'd never hear about it again. Do it in the US and it's front page news on the day and then it's on the second and third pages January through April the following year.

That doesn't really disagree with what I said.

How many days is it reasonable for something to be front page news? Personally I'd prefer 365 different headlines then the same one for 4 months straight.

Re: Congress Is About to Ban the US Government from Offering Free Online Tax Filing

#658

Post by GcVmvNhBsU » Wed, Apr 10, 2019, 5:20 PM UTC

rplst8 wrote: post #561

ljf wrote: post #468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which taxes (if any) would you prefer?

The point isn't so much that people are taxed. It's that they are taxed by a monolithic out-of-control bureaucracy that has grown much to large for anyone's good. To add to this, I'd be 100% ok if my tax bill was flipped such that the federal government got what my local government had gotten and my local government got what the federal government had gotten.

I’m curious as to how you think your proposed structure would be significantly different from the structure under the Articles of Confederation. It seems as though we’ve already tried having minimal revenue raising structures for the federal government, learned that such a structure does not work well at international scales (240 years ago - we’re even more globalized now) and moved onto a more productive form of taxation.

Re: Congress Is About to Ban the US Government from Offering Free Online Tax Filing

#659

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Apr 10, 2019, 5:30 PM UTC

derekp7 wrote: post #123

TheHypnotist wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are suitable alternatives? Aren't they the best in class, regardless of how shitty that class is?

Read the 1040 instructions, and follow them. This works if you don't have a complicated situation, such as business income or if you need to calculate penalties for shortfalls on quarterly filings. Have a CPA do your taxes periodically, then use last year's taxes as a guide for the current year. Typically what I do is write a small program that asks the questions in the 1040 form, then gives me a print out of what go…

[deleted]

Re: Congress Is About to Ban the US Government from Offering Free Online Tax Filing

#660

Post by SilasX » Wed, Apr 10, 2019, 5:34 PM UTC

SkyBelow wrote: post #640

SilasX wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the public really to blame for this? Is there an actual broad constituency that doesn't want this, or at least who trusts an interest group to represent them and who doesn't want this?

Want and behavior aren't always aligned. Does anyone want to be unhealthy? Yet many people act in ways that makes them very unhealthy, some of whom have the ability to change it but choose not to. How much does someone want something if they aren't willing to change their behavior to increase the chance of getting it?

Well, first of all, lobbying for good laws is a public goods/collective action problem, so it may not be optimal to spend money on pursuing it even if you are the "go getter" type.

Second, I was just addressing the claim that politicians pass these laws in response to broad support, by questioning whether such broad support actually exists, even if it doesn't translate into lobbying (since the implicit model i that politicians will still care about it).