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The Age of Robot Farmers

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Re: The Age of Robot Farmers

#31

Post by thinkloop »

ggm wrote: post #16

I'm solely in the consumer camp: I don't produce food, I buy and eat it (I don't buy and sell it either). I think we've been trained to assume cheap food is a goal. I think the goal should have been clearer: cheap enough but not too cheap The economics here are complicated. It benefits me to have cheap food, but if the cost is ag workers with systematic health problems, low income, farmers going bust, prison labor be…

> if they aren't picking, what are these people doing, and whats the wider cost?

This idea needs to die so fast. It's an incredible psychosis that people fear the utopia that is automation. Imagine telling people 1000 years ago that everything around them will be done by robots, but that the people of the future would fight it. Psychologists are going to study this for generations.

It's also pretty offensive. The only reason you (or I) are not picking the fruit is because we were born somewhere else. No one deserves to do that. Especially if we know how to avoid it. What kind of sick fuck would subject someone to that just because they had fewer options. What else can they do? Perhaps help fulfill humans' literally infinite wants? What about nothing? I would much prefer nothing than forced unnecessary labor.

Re: The Age of Robot Farmers

#32

Post by ajmurmann »

thinkloop wrote: post #31
ggm wrote: post #16

I'm solely in the consumer camp: I don't produce food, I buy and eat it (I don't buy and sell it either). I think we've been trained to assume cheap food is a goal. I think the goal should have been clearer: cheap enough but not too cheap The economics here are complicated. It benefits me to have cheap food, but if the cost is ag workers with systematic health problems, low income, farmers going bust, prison labor be…

> if they aren't picking, what are these people doing, and whats the wider cost? This idea needs to die so fast. It's an incredible psychosis that people fear the utopia that is automation. Imagine telling people 1000 years ago that everything around them will be done by robots, but that the people of the future would fight it. Psychologists are going to study this for generations. It's also pretty offensive. The onl…

It's obviously because of the way our economy is set up. One possible outcome of more automation could be higher standard of living while doing less work for everybody. Another possible outcome is a large part of the population being unemployed or underemployed, without health care and trouble to keep housing and even put food on the table, while a small portion of the population that owns the robots lives in luxury. Which of the two alternatives seems right now more realistic? We can't even agree on basic income guarantee which obviously is a necessary step to move towards the desirable of the two scenarios. It's understandable because that clearly would be "communism" and that's always bad and we cannot have that as god fearing, compassionate Americans.

Re: The Age of Robot Farmers

#33

Post by THE_PUN_STOPS »

thinkloop wrote: post #28
jhoechtl wrote: post #27

I was wondering wheather a free supply of food enabled by robots doing the job, and free basic housing could solve some of mankinds problems. Is there literature on the topic, had anyone done the maths? Utopia or feasible, that's what I am wondering.

The issue in the under-developed world is lack of capital, machines, technology, etc. This is more of that. If that's the problem you were hinting at, I don't think this would be the solution.

But container ships.

Re: The Age of Robot Farmers

#34

Post by everdev »

jhoechtl wrote: post #27

I was wondering wheather a free supply of food enabled by robots doing the job, and free basic housing could solve some of mankinds problems. Is there literature on the topic, had anyone done the maths? Utopia or feasible, that's what I am wondering.

Unfortunately, our sense of prosperity seems to be relative.

If 90% of the town has a free house and free food, but the other 10% live in bigger, safer, cleaner houses and are eating better testing/healthier food, I don't think the 90% will be as excited.

I think most humans strive for the best available rather than being content with the minimum they really need. This probably isn't a great way to find happiness but it is a pretty powerful motivator.

Re: The Age of Robot Farmers

#35

Post by joe_the_user »

econ102fail wrote: post #25
brianpgordon wrote: post #10

> In 2011, for example, Georgia enacted a strict immigration law that targeted undocumented workers and their employers. Later that year, the state reportedly lost eleven thousand crop workers. To fill the gap, officials established a program whereby nonviolent offenders nearing the end of their prison terms could do paid farmwork. The program had few takers, and many prisoners and probationers who did try it walked…

That says something that people will rather go back to prison than work the job.

Well, the felons never stop being prisoners in the time they work. This tends to result in an unmotivated workforce no matter what the activity. No only this project but most prison labor projects fail.

Re: The Age of Robot Farmers

#36

Post by swelz »

thinkloop wrote: post #29
brianpgordon wrote: post #10

> In 2011, for example, Georgia enacted a strict immigration law that targeted undocumented workers and their employers. Later that year, the state reportedly lost eleven thousand crop workers. To fill the gap, officials established a program whereby nonviolent offenders nearing the end of their prison terms could do paid farmwork. The program had few takers, and many prisoners and probationers who did try it walked…

> Georgia farmers lost more than a hundred and twenty million dollars > H-2A workers are still among the lowest paid in the country Why don't they pay labour $100M?

I think a larger issue is that food/resource prices may be too low.

Obviously, the farmers need to charge for the food/resource, but if they aren't able to turn a profit when properly hiring and paying staff/contractors to work for them, that's an issue. We don't know if the $100MM would cover the new cost or not.

I believe there is an issue where we've (the US) relied on such low-cost labor for farms far too long and we do not know how to balance out our supply chain with properly paid labor.

Re: The Age of Robot Farmers

#37

Post by thinkloop »

ajmurmann wrote: post #32
thinkloop wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if they aren't picking, what are these people doing, and whats the wider cost? This idea needs to die so fast. It's an incredible psychosis that people fear the utopia that is automation. Imagine telling people 1000 years ago that everything around them will be done by robots, but that the people of the future would fight it. Psychologists are going to study this for generations. It's also pretty offensive. The onl…

It's obviously because of the way our economy is set up. One possible outcome of more automation could be higher standard of living while doing less work for everybody. Another possible outcome is a large part of the population being unemployed or underemployed, without health care and trouble to keep housing and even put food on the table, while a small portion of the population that owns the robots lives in luxury.…

Jobs are useless vestiges of the past. There is nothing honorable about jobs and no one cares about them. By their very definition they are things we don't want to do but have to for survival. This is all industrial work-centric brainwashing. If we can get survival without jobs that would be a great win for human kind.

> Another possible outcome is a large part of the population being unemployed or underemployed, without health care and trouble to keep housing and even put food on the table, while a small portion of the population that owns the robots lives in luxury

The whole point is that robots can make everything including more robots etc. We are talking of a world without scarcity. Why wouldn't everyone have health care? It would be virtually free. Everyone will have 10 or 20 robots. Who cares if someone has 40 or 100. Now that labor is solved people can focus on the fulfilling, interesting, human work of creating and inventing. The only job available will be to configure robots in interesting arrangements to make cooler stuff. But since we have so much stuff already, only a few people will do that as a hobby, for free, other people will make art or entertain or raise families or do nothing. Existence is inherently meaningless and filling time with worthless labor is only a distraction. That's the real issue to solve.

> It's understandable because that clearly would be "communism" and that's always bad

This is also brainwashing, communism is by no means "always bad", it just so happened that economies are too complex to centrally plan and that distributed computing through free individuals (aka capitalism) works better. But if, for example, computation got strong enough, it could potentially be more effecient to holistically and centrally plan an economy. Or in the case of automation, perhaps in a world of plenty, communism becomes the perfect system. I'm not advocating for communism, and I would never want it to encroach on freedoms, but these two cases are viable candidates for success.

Re: The Age of Robot Farmers

#38

Post by choonway »

devoply wrote: post #21
choonway wrote: post #20

The limiting factor of automation is still, the amount of human labor you still need. Can it be reduced to zero? Why do you even need the farmers if that's the case?

Considering how abusive the human relationship is with the land and the animals, why don't we have an agricultural revolution and creates 10s of millions of jobs for farmers? Modern human imagination is so constrained to think that this is impossible. But really it's just political and as easy to do as it is to automate millions of jobs away.

The green revolution eliminated a lot of farming jobs. It is a step forward in the right direction.

If I wanted a burger, wouldn't it be more humane to have an automated system that takes in raw material and synthesizes it on demand instead of on using third-party human labor?

The key is that these collection of machines are also able to repair and maintain themselves. Some kind of hardware CRC.

Re: The Age of Robot Farmers

#39

Post by Simple_Guy »

thinkloop wrote: post #29
brianpgordon wrote: post #10

> In 2011, for example, Georgia enacted a strict immigration law that targeted undocumented workers and their employers. Later that year, the state reportedly lost eleven thousand crop workers. To fill the gap, officials established a program whereby nonviolent offenders nearing the end of their prison terms could do paid farmwork. The program had few takers, and many prisoners and probationers who did try it walked…

> Georgia farmers lost more than a hundred and twenty million dollars > H-2A workers are still among the lowest paid in the country Why don't they pay labour $100M?

Because to do backbreaking work, labour demands $200 million.

the current low price of produce is subsidised by cheap illegal immigrant labour. Just like how the spartans spent their time being warriors while their slaves toiled the field.

Re: The Age of Robot Farmers

#40

Post by IvyMike »

jhoechtl wrote: post #27

I was wondering wheather a free supply of food enabled by robots doing the job, and free basic housing could solve some of mankinds problems. Is there literature on the topic, had anyone done the maths? Utopia or feasible, that's what I am wondering.

This is a little long but covers both the utopian and dystopian versions of the idea. https://marshallbrain.com/manna.htm
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