Live data from Hacker News

I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

doximity.com

301–310 of 337 posts

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, but excruciating pain is always better than death, because death is eternal nothingness. At least excruciating pain is something.

Seems unlikely. Pretty much every healthcare worker I know, religious or non-religious, leans towards DNR over "Full Code" on themselves. To the people who have watched others die on the operating table, they do not believe that the final moments in a hospital is worth it. Death is inevitable. You can either have it with dignity, perhaps a week or month earlier than usual. Or, you can drag it out for weeks or months…

It's not only likely, it's certain. Death is nothingness, not peace, and pretending like it's preferable is basically acquiescing that infinite nothingness is preferable to nothingness, which is definitionally false.

There is literally no such thing as a peaceful death. It may sound poetic, and it may be comforting, but it's not true or real in any sense to the people actually dying.

The reality is, it's peaceful to the living, and so we falsely optimize for that.

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't miss anything, and no the doctor didn't do what I advocate. Sure maybe in the local maxima sense he did, but there's a whole long period of time where more can be done.

The implication you were deriving from the title is still erroneous. In any case, how exactly do you know what they didn't do that they could have? I don't see where you get enough information to derive any such conclusion. Considering that the doctor writing the article was just an intern, chances are he doesn't know everything they tried; how can you possibly claim to know?

You don't get to just declare that I'm wrong without demonstrating it, sorry.

I can claim to know because of all the comments in this thread, because I've had loved ones get terminally sick, because I know what every doctor says when you ask them about this, and the stark reality is it's more about the masses than it is about the individual.

We literally can't try everything on everyone because that'd lower the average level of care overall, not to mention the ethical concerns over experimental treatments that haven't been sufficiently tested.

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#303
post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, but I can have it this way, and it's not "both" ways, it's just one way. Opinions can be false, and it's a lie to say that death is peace. Rudimentary philosophy will help you understand this conversation, as it covers fairly extensively the truth/false of beliefs, and the very nature of what truth is. I recommend you spend some time looking into it before you feign outrage over an unrelated topic to the one i…

> it's a lie to say that death is peace No, it's your opinion that death is not peace. "Peace" is not a word with a single fixed meaning, so you have no basis for saying that other people are lying when they express the opinion that death is peace. All you can say is that your opinion disagrees with theirs. > Rudimentary philosophy will help you understand this conversation, as it covers fairly extensively the truth/…

Yes, I literally do, because words have meanings and death does not mean peace, in any sense of the word. It may be peace for those still living, but for the person who is actually dead, it's not peace, it's literal nothingness for all eternity. There isn't peace in that, no matter how semantic you want to get.

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The implication you were deriving from the title is still erroneous. In any case, how exactly do you know what they didn't do that they could have? I don't see where you get enough information to derive any such conclusion. Considering that the doctor writing the article was just an intern, chances are he doesn't know everything they tried; how can you possibly claim to know?

You don't get to just declare that I'm wrong without demonstrating it, sorry. I can claim to know because of all the comments in this thread, because I've had loved ones get terminally sick, because I know what every doctor says when you ask them about this, and the stark reality is it's more about the masses than it is about the individual. We literally can't try everything on everyone because that'd lower the avera…

[deleted]

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#305
I'm sure when you're in the medical field for a while, it's impossible not to think of people as meat, but it is frustrating to be judged for making difference choices.

My mother, over the past few years, has been going through the consequences of being a lifelong smoker. She has had cancer, aneurysms, a heart attack, and multiple breathing crises resulting in trips to the emergency room and weeks in the hospital. She has survived all of this, despite the doctors' predictions and in some cases best efforts to facilitate those predictions. They see an elderly woman with multiple terminal illnesses in pain, so they give her morphine, it depresses her breathing and causes hallucinations, and she looks and acts the picture of someone who's not going to make it to next week. That happened a year ago and my sister figured out that she was being overmedicated, and a short time after stopping the end-of-life treatment, she was able to go back home. Eventually she got enrolled in Hospice, which at first meant access to some equipment and a bit of "help", but before long they brought the morphine into the house to deal with some back pain, the amount escalated, and she ended up back in the hospital where she stopped eating, got an untreatable bowel obstruction, and rapidly lost a ton of weight. She wasn't actively being treated for anything, and all of our interactions with the doctors and hospice people were about ensuring there would be no life-saving interventions, so we questioned the point of being in the hospital. Once again, off the morphine she came back to life and went home. She didn't want to die. We have had years of decent quality time together that would not have happened if we hadn't taken an active role in preventing her from being prematurely shoved down the "old person dying" chute.

I am a huge fan of modern medical science. It saved my mother's life and the lives of many people I know. At the same time, people are human and do human things. Not everyone values the same things. My sister and I found it very upsetting to be constantly judged for wanting to do anything other than medicate my Mom to death, and as it my be obvious from my tone, I'm holding a grudge. I feel compassion for the author of this article for the trauma they had and have to experience, but I do not respect them for it is obvious they don't respect the family with the judgmental and holier-than-thou attitude.

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The implication you were deriving from the title is still erroneous. In any case, how exactly do you know what they didn't do that they could have? I don't see where you get enough information to derive any such conclusion. Considering that the doctor writing the article was just an intern, chances are he doesn't know everything they tried; how can you possibly claim to know?

You don't get to just declare that I'm wrong without demonstrating it, sorry. I can claim to know because of all the comments in this thread, because I've had loved ones get terminally sick, because I know what every doctor says when you ask them about this, and the stark reality is it's more about the masses than it is about the individual. We literally can't try everything on everyone because that'd lower the avera…

We both have experiences with terminally sick loved ones; but our disagreement comes from the interpretation of the text, not from those.

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't get to just declare that I'm wrong without demonstrating it, sorry. I can claim to know because of all the comments in this thread, because I've had loved ones get terminally sick, because I know what every doctor says when you ask them about this, and the stark reality is it's more about the masses than it is about the individual. We literally can't try everything on everyone because that'd lower the avera…

We both have experiences with terminally sick loved ones; but our disagreement comes from the interpretation of the text, not from those.

Not really, no. My comment was about the general thrust of the content of the text, not any specific line.

You can interpret the text however you want, it's still entirely topical to call out the medical profession on the false notion of death as peace that they're trying to sell us for their own sakes, at our expense.

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#308
post #305

I'm sure when you're in the medical field for a while, it's impossible not to think of people as meat, but it is frustrating to be judged for making difference choices. My mother, over the past few years, has been going through the consequences of being a lifelong smoker. She has had cancer, aneurysms, a heart attack, and multiple breathing crises resulting in trips to the emergency room and weeks in the hospital. Sh…

I agree that frank discussions between the healthcare team and patient/family would be ideal. Suppositions that the team knows best, intimidation from lack of knowledge, and unrealistic expectations can lead to unhappy outcomes for both parties. I'm sorry that your mom didn't receive the care that you and your sister felt she deserved. Messages like this will help others.

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a dual or two-aspect irony at the center of modern culture in the West. The ironies - both negative - are the following: (1) An increasing, intentional aversion to one's own death and the death of others. Instead of living life in full awareness that you and those you care about are all dying (in some sense), our culture runs from the prospect of death through various forms of distraction, etc. This adolesce…

Facing one's own mortality carries a tacit knowledge of death that can't be got by other means. It's one thing to think about it intellectually, to sort of turn it around in your mind. But it doesn't give you a sense of death. I can tell from your treatment of it that you haven't. And that you hold up this sort of deeply personal interaction as a demonstration of some problems you believe you've identified with an en…

You get a sense of death in various ways. Life-threatening illness. Experiencing the death of friends and family members (and not just experiencing, but processing your emotions and not running from the pain by choosing to simply ignore it as if it is not really there). Spending time with and caring for the sick and elderly.

There are more ways.

I've only been in a life-threatening situation once in my life, but I've experienced the others a number of times.

My point was that our culture seems to discourage absorbing loss (within oneself) and transforming it from pain into maturity, resilience, increased desire to help others, increased motivation to maintain communities, etc. Instead, there seems to be a pressure to make death (and loss) something ephemeral, such that the loss never really occurs.

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems unlikely. Pretty much every healthcare worker I know, religious or non-religious, leans towards DNR over "Full Code" on themselves. To the people who have watched others die on the operating table, they do not believe that the final moments in a hospital is worth it. Death is inevitable. You can either have it with dignity, perhaps a week or month earlier than usual. Or, you can drag it out for weeks or months…

It's not only likely, it's certain. Death is nothingness, not peace, and pretending like it's preferable is basically acquiescing that infinite nothingness is preferable to nothingness, which is definitionally false. There is literally no such thing as a peaceful death. It may sound poetic, and it may be comforting, but it's not true or real in any sense to the people actually dying. The reality is, it's peaceful to…

> Death is nothingness, not peace, and pretending like it's preferable is basically acquiescing that infinite nothingness is preferable to nothingness, which is definitionally false.

This seems to be in the realm of philosophy, meta-science and religion. I don't really want to bring the discussion there, but I simply need to point out that many, many religions (and atheists) have different opinions on this matter. For example, a dignified death may bring you closer to the creator (emphasis on "dignified", because suicide doesn't count for some religions).

And I don't believe there's any way to properly gather evidence about what happens to someone after they die. And without establishing our religious ideals as ground rules, I don't think we can really have a good discussion on the matter.

Post reply on HN