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I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

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Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#291

Post by MandieD »

dunnevens wrote: post #230
learc83 wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was also raised Southern Baptist (though I’m a liberal mainline protestant now) and my dad was an assistant pastor/choir director for most of my childhood. I couldn’t disagree with many aspects of Southern Baptist theology and doctrine more, but this was not my experience at all. Sure people prayed for sick family members, but the focus was always more on repenting and being reunited in heaven than it was on stayin…

We apparently had vastly different experiences within the same denomination. Prayers were almost always for healing. Repentence almost never came into it as the subject of the prayers was usually "saved". Nor were the prayers for being reunited in heaven because that was assumed to be a given. Feeding into all of this were the half-baked stories from the pulpit of healing. Of some miraculous last minute renewal of he…

Now Episcopalian, I grew up Southern Baptist, in the First Baptist Church of a mid-sized Texas city. There was a world of difference between the prevailing attitudes of mostly-multigenerational Baptists (at 5+ generations, you might even call us "ethnic Baptists") in a congregation with loads of doctors, teachers and very successful businessmen, and one with relatively recent converts and not many professionals. My Sunday School teachers always assumed I was going to college, and were proud that it was a competitive East Coast school.

My mom went through her metastatic cancer surrounded by an amazing hospice chaplain who happened to also be her Sunday School teacher, helpful Sunday School classmates and other church members, and realistic expectations all around. She was pretty blunt but cheerful about what was happening, and insisted on a DNR when it started looking really futile, which one of her fellow Baptist friends witnessed without hesitation.

It was a great comfort to be able to begin her obituary, "she passed away at home, surrounded by her family and friends," and her church community believed that she went to meet her Lord in peace.

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#292

Post by diminoten »

monodeldiablo wrote: post #262
diminoten wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not my opinion, it's objective fact; after death there is literally nothingness forever, and even excruciating pain is something; you can react to it, decide things about it, etc. Those are facts . Also you know absolutely nothing about me. Don't pretend like you do.

> Life is still life, and death is still infinitely worse. ^^ That's an opinion, phrased as if it was a fact. It's a value judgement and nothing more. I respect that it's your opinion, but just because you fervently believe it doesn't make it objectively true. If you wish to engage in a meaningful and productive conversation, you'll need to be more honest about separating your opinions from fact. I think that, undern…

It's called persuasive writing. If I couched everything with "I think" my 4th grade English teacher would come out from behind a bush and swat my hands.

The fact that you can identify what my opinion is and still not address it, preferring to have this semantic argument, is a great example of someone avoiding the conversation because they know they're in the wrong.

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#293

Post by diminoten »

icebraining wrote: post #271
diminoten wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The literal title of this submission is "I lied when I said we did everything we could". If what I'm saying is conspiracy, so is this article. And no, I don't care if I'm being rude, I care if I'm being accurate. And I am. Stop making this about outrage and either have a conversation about the topic or leave. I may be wrong, but debating how offensive I'm being is a waste of everyone's time.

> The literal title of this submission is "I lied when I said we did everything we could". If what I'm saying is conspiracy, so is this article. I think you totally missed the point of the article. The doctor there did what you advocate, it's just that he doesn't consider that doing everything they can.

I didn't miss anything, and no the doctor didn't do what I advocate. Sure maybe in the local maxima sense he did, but there's a whole long period of time where more can be done.

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#294

Post by diminoten »

monodeldiablo wrote: post #264
diminoten wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Death absolutely is an eternal nothingness, don't fool yourself. Your kids, your wife, none of that matters after you're dead. It's literally irrelevant at that point.

My kids and my wife absolutely matter after I'm dead. I'm not so self-centered as to believe that they exist solely to give me pleasure.

To you? Nope. Nothing does, you're dead.

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#295

Post by diminoten »

pdonis wrote: post #252
diminoten wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Epistemologically, there can be false beliefs, so no it is not an oxymoron, obvious or otherwise. Basic philosophy. You're right, this will go nowhere because you're trying to have a semantics argument while also being wrong about the semantics you're trying to correct. And again, I don't care if you find me to be rude. Bringing it up is distracting from the larger conversation, about how we're being sold a bill of g…

> we're being sold a bill of goods by doctors about "peaceful death" because it makes their lives easier to think about, at the cost of giving up earlier on patients At last, an actual substantive statement. But unfortunately, it's still your opinion. I have no problem at all with you choosing to fight to the last and continuing to seek treatments right to the end even if you are diagnosed with a terminal illness whe…

So to be clear, you can obviously see when I'm expressing my opinion, but due to semantics of English, you demand I express it in a way that doesn't offend you?

Jesus dude, why the fuck would anyone listen to that level of hubris? What the hell kind of incentives are you giving me here, because right now my only incentive is to laugh at the person who can't actually have a conversation because they're too busy derailing it with semantic arguments about things they did understand, but didn't like how it was presented.

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#296

Post by diminoten »

pdonis wrote: post #250
diminoten wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not how opinions work at all. An opinion can be true or false, justified or not. I'm not countering anyone's opinion with my own opinion, I'm pointing out facts that disprove those opinions, and then offering my own alternative opinion that isn't proven wrong.

> I'm pointing out facts that disprove those opinions You have pointed out no fact that justifies your accusation of lying.

Ah so now you rope back around to the actual conversation. Nope, you've poisoned this well too much with your semantic nonsense, you don't deserve to benefit from anything I have to say about death.

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#297

Post by icebraining »

diminoten wrote: post #293
icebraining wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The literal title of this submission is "I lied when I said we did everything we could". If what I'm saying is conspiracy, so is this article. I think you totally missed the point of the article. The doctor there did what you advocate, it's just that he doesn't consider that doing everything they can.

I didn't miss anything, and no the doctor didn't do what I advocate. Sure maybe in the local maxima sense he did, but there's a whole long period of time where more can be done.

The implication you were deriving from the title is still erroneous.

In any case, how exactly do you know what they didn't do that they could have? I don't see where you get enough information to derive any such conclusion. Considering that the doctor writing the article was just an intern, chances are he doesn't know everything they tried; how can you possibly claim to know?

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#298

Post by chmod775 »

diminoten wrote: post #224
chmod775 wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Something can be an opinion and a lie by definition. Where opinion means "belief held", that's an obvious oxymoron. > Also, I don't care if I insult people by stating facts, including, "Your opinion is wrong/a lie." Getting upset about a fact is yelling at a cloud. Let me quote yourself at you: > Stop trying to interpret my opinions as facts. Are you seriously fooled into thinking what I'm saying here is even argua…

Epistemologically, there can be false beliefs, so no it is not an oxymoron, obvious or otherwise. Basic philosophy. You're right, this will go nowhere because you're trying to have a semantics argument while also being wrong about the semantics you're trying to correct. And again, I don't care if you find me to be rude. Bringing it up is distracting from the larger conversation, about how we're being sold a bill of g…

> You're right, this will go nowhere because you're trying to have a semantics argument while also being wrong about the semantics you're trying to correct.

Yikes. Okay. You goaded me into replying.

About lies and opinions: If you said something factually incorrect that you nevertheless believed to be true at the time, you were not lying.

That is why it can't be a lie when you say something that you honestly believe (i.e. your opinion).

Now it might be that "Lie" means something different in your culture, but in the English language it means "[..] an assertion that is believed to be false, typically used with the purpose of deceiving someone". (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie).

Here's a good article on the matter: https://philosophynow.org/issues/27/The_Truth_about_Lying

Now whether I lied when I said I would not reply is for you to figure out.

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#299

Post by dragontamer »

diminoten wrote: post #57
macintux wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I want to go out as a result of a series of violent mistakes trying to save my life. The problem is that excruciating pain is only obviously better than death if there’s something positive at the end of it. Otherwise it’s comparable to being tortured 24 hours a day for the rest of your life.

Sorry, but excruciating pain is always better than death, because death is eternal nothingness. At least excruciating pain is something.

Seems unlikely.

Pretty much every healthcare worker I know, religious or non-religious, leans towards DNR over "Full Code" on themselves. To the people who have watched others die on the operating table, they do not believe that the final moments in a hospital is worth it.

Death is inevitable. You can either have it with dignity, perhaps a week or month earlier than usual. Or, you can drag it out for weeks or months in a hospital (possibly bankrupting your family). Regardless, you'll die eventually.

There are plenty of stories about brain-dead patients staying in a hospital for years (!!) while their bodies atrophy and inevitable brain damage prevents any hope for a reasonable life afterwards. Modern science can keep someone technically alive, but at an unfortunate cost.

Its far luckier to die peacefully (and suddenly) in your sleep... without dragging out your life. Doctors for the most part know this, but they don't want to change American culture or trample on people's right to choose how they die. But its pretty clear what option is preferable.

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#300

Post by dragontamer »

macintux wrote: post #137
icebraining wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These kind of ageist arguments are pretty annoying. Some people have chronic pain and still want to live as long as they possibly can.

There’s a significant difference between chronic pain and crippling state of existence that requires your ribs to be broken to sustain life.

From my understanding: any CPR done properly has a risk of breaking people's ribs. You've got to push quite strongly to resuscitate the heart.

If you're not coming back, the doctor performing CPR will push harder and harder to try to get you to breath again. And yes, that means broken ribs.

Medicine is ugly. We rip out veins in the legs and attach them to the heart to "cure" blocked arteries and prevent heart attacks. We pull tendons out of corpses, drill screws into bones, and re-attach the knee bones... to provide additional support to torn tendons.

And in some cases: doctors tell the patient to live with the condition (ex: some peculiar shoulder bone breaks), because the treatment is sometimes worse than the ailment.

---------

I don't know all treatments or all ailments... and even doctors won't know all the possibilities. But, the overwhelming expert opinion of the health care industry seems to be against full code. (and btw: they make money when they drag lives out... they have a financial incentive against this recommendation. The longer they drag out your life, the more money that they make.)

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