Facebook are 'morally bankrupt liars' says New Zealand's privacy commissioner • Hacker News Board

Re: Facebook are 'morally bankrupt liars' says New Zealand's privacy commissioner

#201

Post by rndgermandude » Mon, Apr 08, 2019, 6:28 AM UTC

xupybd wrote: post #6

I'm a New Zealander. I think our privacy commissioner is so totally wrong here. It's a hard technical problem to solve. It's an even harder political problem to solve. Automatic censorship of live feeds, how do you do that? Automatic take downs of videos doctored to avoid being removed, how to do you do that? Then if you have these automatic systems in place how do you avoid getting accused of censoring everyone? I d…

There are an even more fundamental questions than "How": Should we censor? And if you should, what should we censor and where is the line?

These are hard questions, and need good answers, not some laws referring vaguely to "abhorrent" content, and some politicians grand standing without really saying anything.

Just to name a few things that I think are utterly abhorrent, but also think should not be censored, because I think the merits of the society being able to see and talk about those things outweigh the downsides:

- The 9/11 footage and the Falling Man in particular: abhorrent

- The dead Syrian refugee kid on the Turkish beach: abhorrent

- Footage from concentration camps and the Holocaust: abhorrent

- The Christchurch shooter and his murder spree: abhorrent

- The footage from the Paris attacks: abhorrent.

- The footage from the Boston Marathon bombing: abhorrent.

- The screaming naked girl, running away from her village in Vietnam: abhorrent

Re: Facebook are 'morally bankrupt liars' says New Zealand's privacy commissioner

#202

Post by NeedMoreTea » Mon, Apr 08, 2019, 6:29 AM UTC

rndgermandude wrote: post #176

llukas wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Furthermore, the idea that harsh penalties and regulations are going to prevent psychopaths from broadcasting their killing spree is ridiculous Nobody is broadcasting in TV or newspapers - they are actually liable for content that gets published on those platforms. Maybe we finally remove exception for internet?

The internet isn't exempted. You're just looking at the wrong party for liability. The people who actually put up those live streams are liable, and abusing facebook's service. Same as TV and newspapers; you don't sue Comcast or the guy who installed your satellite dish, you sue the TV station; You don't sue the paper boy, you sue the news paper.

Facebook, Youtube or whichever platform is the broadcaster in this instance.

If they're not, why do we sue the TV station rather than the production company of the programme? CBS can yell "don't look at us, we didn't make Game of Thrones".

It's their exception that is looking increasingly absurd.

Re: Facebook are 'morally bankrupt liars' says New Zealand's privacy commissioner

#203

Post by helloindia » Mon, Apr 08, 2019, 6:30 AM UTC

Tomte wrote: post #139

acdc4life wrote: post #35

"[They] allow the live streaming of suicides, rapes, and murders, continue to host and publish the mosque attack video, allow advertisers to target ‘Jew haters’ and other hateful market segments, and refuse to accept any responsibility for any content or harm." I stopped reading after this point. Facebook has no clue what kind of stuff gets posted on their platform, and their AI isn't powerful enough to detect it. Th…

> Facebook has no clue what kind of stuff gets posted on their platform Of course they do. People report. And in my personal experience, Facebook always(!) replies "not against community standards", even when clear-cut crimes like rape threats.

This has also been my experience. For most of posts/comments I report(which I think shouldn't be on Facebook), I get the default reply "not against communist standards".

Re: Facebook are 'morally bankrupt liars' says New Zealand's privacy commissioner

#204

Post by noja » Mon, Apr 08, 2019, 6:35 AM UTC

acdc4life wrote: post #35

"[They] allow the live streaming of suicides, rapes, and murders, continue to host and publish the mosque attack video, allow advertisers to target ‘Jew haters’ and other hateful market segments, and refuse to accept any responsibility for any content or harm." I stopped reading after this point. Facebook has no clue what kind of stuff gets posted on their platform, and their AI isn't powerful enough to detect it. Th…

> Facebook has no clue what kind of stuff gets posted on their platform

Well there is your problem. Why is Facebook held to a different standard than other media? ("Because they want to earn more money" is not a good answer)

Re: Facebook are 'morally bankrupt liars' says New Zealand's privacy commissioner

#205

Post by drcross » Mon, Apr 08, 2019, 6:36 AM UTC

nilskidoo wrote: post #178

shard972 wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider who the person is reviewing these things. Imagine all the horrible fucked up shit they see on a daily basis. I wouldn't be surprised if after seeing videos of babies being killed, people being beheaded and hung, that some sperm yelling at women might not even register to them as a bad thing.

And "horrible fucked up shit" amounts to clicks. People don't stream Lawrence Welk for their modern entertainment needs. I say the company knows damn well what content it leaves untouched. It caters to enablers.

Well, to play devil's advocate to your point, it's barely Facebook's fault that the public has an appetite for such heinous material. People want to watch these things, why do we blame Facebook for that and not ourselves?

Re: Facebook are 'morally bankrupt liars' says New Zealand's privacy commissioner

#206

Post by rndgermandude » Mon, Apr 08, 2019, 6:37 AM UTC

tannhaeuser wrote: post #193

rndgermandude wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The internet isn't exempted. You're just looking at the wrong party for liability. The people who actually put up those live streams are liable, and abusing facebook's service. Same as TV and newspapers; you don't sue Comcast or the guy who installed your satellite dish, you sue the TV station; You don't sue the paper boy, you sue the news paper.

Nope. FB gets billions for ads. They can't just shrug and say "we're just providing the platform".

I am not shrugging. I am saying, with conviction: They are just providing the platform.

Re: Facebook are 'morally bankrupt liars' says New Zealand's privacy commissioner

#207

Post by stale2002 » Mon, Apr 08, 2019, 6:37 AM UTC

laughinghan wrote: post #183

o10449366 wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's something hilariously ironic in saying that tech companies should be treated like mining, aviation, and medical companies. How many natural disasters have the biggest mining companies caused and what repercussions have they faced? Do you really think Boeing is going to dissolve or that the pharmaceutical companies that kill tens of thousands each year by selling opioids and bankrupt millions more are actually…

Just to clarify, is it your position that the FAA, FDA, and OSMRE are circus shows and that abolishing the FAA would make aviation safer, abolishing the FDA would make medicine safer, and abolishing the OSMRE would make mining safer? Or are you saying those agencies don't do enough to hold accountable the companies that caused all those problems? Because that doesn't seem like an argument against regulating tech comp…

No. He is basically saying that as long as we have these much larger problems, we should all of our time trying to fix those, instead of wasting time and money on a problem that is 1 thousand times less serious of a problem.

If social media starts killing 10s of thousands of people every year, then we should start talking about FAA, or FDA style regulations. But as long as that number is measured in dozens of people, we shouldn't be wasting billions worrying about it.

Lets take that moral outrage of yours and spend it on something a bit more productive, shall we?

Re: Facebook are 'morally bankrupt liars' says New Zealand's privacy commissioner

#208

Post by raxxorrax » Mon, Apr 08, 2019, 6:40 AM UTC

Tomte wrote: post #139

acdc4life wrote: post #35

"[They] allow the live streaming of suicides, rapes, and murders, continue to host and publish the mosque attack video, allow advertisers to target ‘Jew haters’ and other hateful market segments, and refuse to accept any responsibility for any content or harm." I stopped reading after this point. Facebook has no clue what kind of stuff gets posted on their platform, and their AI isn't powerful enough to detect it. Th…

> Facebook has no clue what kind of stuff gets posted on their platform Of course they do. People report. And in my personal experience, Facebook always(!) replies "not against community standards", even when clear-cut crimes like rape threats.

This is just a form of the child pornography scare that resonates with contemporary politics.

There isn't a significant portion of users that condone these threats. I will still be held against anyone not wanting to give facebook more control over content.

Re: Facebook are 'morally bankrupt liars' says New Zealand's privacy commissioner

#209

Post by lordfrikk » Mon, Apr 08, 2019, 6:43 AM UTC

acdc4life wrote: post #35

"[They] allow the live streaming of suicides, rapes, and murders, continue to host and publish the mosque attack video, allow advertisers to target ‘Jew haters’ and other hateful market segments, and refuse to accept any responsibility for any content or harm." I stopped reading after this point. Facebook has no clue what kind of stuff gets posted on their platform, and their AI isn't powerful enough to detect it. Th…

This is not correct. Roger McNamee, who was Zuckerberg's mentor and also helped recruit Facebook's COO Sheryl Sandberg, said they simply do not want to do it. He tried to push them in that direction but was met with resistance.

Re: Facebook are 'morally bankrupt liars' says New Zealand's privacy commissioner

#210

Post by miluge » Mon, Apr 08, 2019, 6:43 AM UTC

llukas wrote: post #163

o10449366 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are you implying that Facebook isn't actively moderating their platforms or that governments would be able to do a better job? Facebook has hired thousands of human moderators in the past few years, significantly more than Google and Twitter. They've also invested significantly in improving their AI detection systems. That doesn't mean there isn't work to do still, but you're insinuating that they aren't actively…

> Furthermore, the idea that harsh penalties and regulations are going to prevent psychopaths from broadcasting their killing spree is ridiculous Nobody is broadcasting in TV or newspapers - they are actually liable for content that gets published on those platforms. Maybe we finally remove exception for internet?

TV is usually not user generated content though...