I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could • Hacker News Board

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#151

Post by sagebird » Sun, Apr 07, 2019, 9:33 PM UTC

saagarjha wrote: post #135

sagebird wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If God gave man brains and free will, then Christians should be ok with the tools and medicine man creates, because it’s still God’s creation at the root, if even indirectly. (I know this doesn’t square with Luddites/ Amish etc.)

God gives man the ability to make tools that can both prolong their life and end it prematurely. Is there anything special about the latter than makes it “forbidden”?

I don’t think there is some sort of list of forbidden tools. Though Wikipedia says that Protestants think you go to hell if you commit suicide:

Psalm 139:8 ("If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.") has often been discussed in the context of the fate of those who commit suicide

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#152

Post by tellak » Sun, Apr 07, 2019, 9:37 PM UTC

saalweachter wrote: post #43

oralty wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hospital_emergency_codes#Code_... Code blue is not literally used everywhere... many places in the US use a number these days like 99 for "Blue" and then other memorable two digit numbers for more specific, less emergent needs like respiratory support or rapid response. Same thing.

I feel like there's an inherent drift in the slang because part of its job is to not freak out bystanders, but once everyone knows what it means, you need to pivot to new slang.

Technically it’s not slang (I took issue with that webmd calling it slang.. because it isn’t informal just nonstandardizd), it’s jargon. Because although different institutions do it differently, all this stuff is formalized pretty clearly.

There is both the PA codes, ie anything from fire (unsurprisingly often code red), active shooter, to rapid response (person still has a pulse but ain’t feeling so hot)... to full on code blue.. but most places I work these are “quick” numbers like 66 or 88.

I don’t think freaking out bystanders is a consideration.. since the non medical codes are often posted prominently in conspicuous locations, and the medical ones.. I mean who cares. But in most hospitals if you look near a nurse station you’ll find them not hidden. But who gets freaked out by a trauma alert or a code blue at of all places a hospital? there’s no saving those types.

Having worked in a number of places it is more about expediency and scale. Code Blue was fine in the 1960s.. it was basically a tack on to other colors and it’s not too confusing. Now fast forward and there are different types of teams you want to call... respiratory, rapid response, ACLS, police, psych.. colors don’t scale well for this unless you want to go off of roygbiv.. and then you’ve lost.

Edit: there have been efforts to standardize. In the US sometimes you get consistency in a region.

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#153

Post by jrnichols » Sun, Apr 07, 2019, 9:37 PM UTC

bartread wrote: post #128

jrnichols wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> seems to me like it's a cultural thing as well. This is true. I think that it's also a religious thing as well, and almost Christians. Other religions are more accepting of death, but Christianity has taught many to sincerely believe that Jesus himself would step into the room and heal their loved one, therefore every attempt must be made to save them. This is something I've seen first hand in my years as a Paramed…

> This is true. I think that it's also a religious thing as well, and almost Christians. Other religions are more accepting of death, but Christianity has taught many to sincerely believe that Jesus himself would step into the room and heal their loved one, therefore every attempt must be made to save them. Nope. Everybody dies, with rare exception: the Bible is pretty unequivocal on that. I hate to drift so close to…

This has been my own experience over the years, and if you'll please take the time to re-read what I said, you'll see I said "many" and not all. There are going to be differences, of course.

Think back to the Terri Schiavo case. While she was apparently Catholic, the sentiment was the same. Her family believed that she was going to be healed by God (or Jesus, either one) and would make a full recovery.

I also think that years of medical dramas on television have given many many people (again, not everyone...) unrealistic expectations of medicine.

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#154

Post by cableshaft » Sun, Apr 07, 2019, 9:39 PM UTC

Pxtl wrote: post #49

I don't have asthma. My doctor says I have something milder than asthma. I have a puffer, and if you put me in the same room as a rabbit or guinea pig I will be struggling to breathe in about 20 minutes. I've lied awake at night coughing and hearing the accordion-like chorus of my wheezing windpipe. But it's not asthma. It has, however, made me very aware of what it feels like when lungs are not working well. Nothing…

You probably do have asthma. I'm a lifelong asthmatic and what you're describing is me on a rare bad day (it didn't used to be as rare as a kid, but is more rare for me in adulthood). You should probably get a second opinion, and an inhaler, peak flow meter, and a nebulizer as soon as you can.

I got worried about life expectancy for asthmatics recently, and it seems like, generally speaking, as long as it's well treated, the life expectancy is about the same as a non-asthmatic on average. You have to be careful when you have a severe asthma attack though, those can potentially kill you if you don't go to ER.

Here's an article from the CDC that includes a page that gives the breakdown of deaths and demographic breakdowns of it:

https://www.cdc.gov/asthma/pdfs/asthma_facts_program_grantee...

If you're actively wheezing at night, something is wrong and you need to get treated for it. I only have that happen to me once or twice a year, usually, and whenever that happens I'm taking medication to help combat it.

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#155

Post by jrnichols » Sun, Apr 07, 2019, 9:41 PM UTC

hnuser355 wrote: post #35

jrnichols wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> seems to me like it's a cultural thing as well. This is true. I think that it's also a religious thing as well, and almost Christians. Other religions are more accepting of death, but Christianity has taught many to sincerely believe that Jesus himself would step into the room and heal their loved one, therefore every attempt must be made to save them. This is something I've seen first hand in my years as a Paramed…

I believe this might be more prominent among uneducated folks of (at least in my neck of the woods) non-mainline American Protestant denominations. At least the doctors of the Catholic Church will specifically talk about preparation for death, dying well (also mentioned by Fred Rogers in the documentary I saw about him), etc.

I can't disagree with that.

As a whole, I think that Americans are woefully unprepared for end of life care. I encourage people to have an advance directive on file.

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#156

Post by lolc » Sun, Apr 07, 2019, 9:42 PM UTC

diminoten wrote: post #89

lolc wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In many cases, there are no mistakes made. Imagine a doctor saying: "You're going out but if we inflict pain you will stay longer." What would you choose? Peace or pain? What would you want your relatives to choose for you? In case you can't decide anymore? If the rest of my life will be nothing but pain, I don't think I'll want it.

Death is not peace, stop perpetuating that lie.

Not all peace is welcome, mind you.

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#157

Post by jrnichols » Sun, Apr 07, 2019, 9:46 PM UTC

bobthepanda wrote: post #75

jdietrich wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I can't think of a way to implement a law like that which wouldn't be fraught with horrible problems. Existing child protection laws are for the most part perfectly satisfactory, if they're actually used. The courts routinely decide on whether a parent is fit to make decisions about their child, or whether a particular decision is in the best interests of that child. Many of these cases will individually present ver…

Yeah, the Terri Schiavo case is a great example of how pro-life activism unnecessarily prolonged someone's suffering: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terri_Schiavo_case

That is what I was referring to earlier in the thread. I think that case had far reaching effects, even to this day.

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#158

Post by diminoten » Sun, Apr 07, 2019, 9:53 PM UTC

bloak wrote: post #83

diminoten wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, but excruciating pain is always better than death, because death is eternal nothingness. At least excruciating pain is something.

I suppose I might choose the excruciating pain if I were alone on a desert island with nobody watching. But if my wife and children were sitting round my death bed I think I'd prefer, for their benefit, to die in a dignified way. And in a timely manner so as not to keep them waiting. Death is not eternal nothingness. Life goes on.

Death absolutely is an eternal nothingness, don't fool yourself. Your kids, your wife, none of that matters after you're dead. It's literally irrelevant at that point.

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#159

Post by koenigdavidmj » Sun, Apr 07, 2019, 9:54 PM UTC

sagebird wrote: post #151

saagarjha wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

God gives man the ability to make tools that can both prolong their life and end it prematurely. Is there anything special about the latter than makes it “forbidden”?

I don’t think there is some sort of list of forbidden tools. Though Wikipedia says that Protestants think you go to hell if you commit suicide: Psalm 139:8 ("If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.") has often been discussed in the context of the fate of those who commit suicide

This is not universal among Protestants. It is the doctrine of the Roman church (suicide is mortal sin, and you are outside a state of grace if you commit it, and you can’t be reconciled if you’re dead).

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#160

Post by jrnichols » Sun, Apr 07, 2019, 9:54 PM UTC

DesiLurker wrote: post #67

diminoten wrote: post #40

I want to go out as a result of a series of violent mistakes trying to save my life. Why would anyone want anything else? Peaceful death is basically suicide. Why do doctors continually perpetuate this notion that slipping softly into death (palliative care, hospice) is preferable to continually trying to avoid it by way of riskier and riskier attempts at treating the root cause? At the very least, we could be honest…

though I agree with you mostly I feel you are ignoring a couple of things 1) Pain, often pain management becomes a much bigger issue than going all out fighting vehemently to prolong your life by a few more days/weeks/months. Its hard to understand what chronic pain does to you and your mind unless you or a close loved one goes through it. Often pain management also aligns with 'slipping gently into the night'. 2) In…

Adding a study to back up yours. "Spending on Medicare beneficiaries in their last year of life accounts for about 25% of total Medicare spending on beneficiaries age 65 or older."

https://www.kff.org/medicare/issue-brief/medicare-spending-a...