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I let a stranger watch me work for a day and I've never been more productive

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Re: I let a stranger watch me work for a day and I've never been more productive

#51

Post by systemizer »

coldtea wrote: post #40
systemizer wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, so shame exists because it is good for a society that is built on shame? I don't mean to be derogatory in anyway, but the fact something is stabilizing doesn't mean it is good. I believe there are better ways to build relationships with others

> Okay, so shame exists because it is good for a society that is built on shame? Yes. Shame exists because it gave some evolutionary benefits to the primates who had it, like being able to live in a society and cooperate and don't cheat/kill/fuck over each other as much (if you think we do bad stuff too much, wait till you see what we can do without shame). > I believe there are better ways to build relationships wit…

Good points! I agree the feeling of shame is pre-reflective. At the same time, I think we have the possibility of comporting ourselves in a way-of-being that better copes with shame. For me, By reflectively using your pre-reflective feeling of shame as a tool for productivity feels wrong (and this is personal and I don't have the best words right now to expound that feeling)

Re: I let a stranger watch me work for a day and I've never been more productive

#52

Post by alangpierce »

systemizer wrote: post #8

Anybody else get an immediately negative visceral reaction from this? If I'm understanding this correctly, the aim is to manipulate our sense of shame/guilt to boost productivity. After sitting with the feeling for a bit, here are some ideas that come to mind: 1. Maybe we should ask why we feel shame/guilt in the first place. Is it "normal" to feel this? If it isn't we should not rely on it for our happiness (or prod…

It sounds like you're questioning the whole idea of accountability. The mechanism here is the same as if you have a friend check in on you to help you quit smoking or exercise more or eat better. It's true that you're adding pressure/shame/guilt into your life, but I don't think it's particularly sinister.

The way I see it, the mind is extremely complex, and the decisions you make in the moment may not be the decisions you'd like to make in life. In the moment, you might end up eating a tempting ice cream sandwich, or you might get distracted by Facebook when you meant to be working on a meaningful project. The sort of accountability from the article is an example of understanding your goals, emotions, and habits, and harnessing that understanding to better achieve what you really want. The pressure/shame/guilt here is a tool to be used with care, and if it negatively affects your life, then certainly you should stop or scale it back a bit.

I find happiness from productivity because I try my best to work on projects that I find meaningful (inside and outside of my job), and I find pride/meaning to be one of the most satisfying forms of happiness. People who don't find meaning in their work might still feel that productivity helps them achieve their goals by getting a raise or keeping a job, thus providing money to use for other goals (like happiness).

Re: I let a stranger watch me work for a day and I've never been more productive

#53

Post by ianmcgowan »

graeme wrote: post #22

Tangentially related: is there any sort of dashboard service that would let me create a dashboard showing things like: * email inbox count (differentiated by email inbox) * unmoderated comment queue on website * Facebook unread message count. Similar ones for other social media inboxes * and maybe some custom metrics or ones triggered by a spreadsheet or todoist or something I think this would be immensely useful for…

No, but that sounds like a great startup idea. Sign me up!

Re: I let a stranger watch me work for a day and I've never been more productive

#54

Post by sh87 »

BurningFrog wrote: post #39

My first month of pair programming was utterly exhausting, but once I got into the pace, it was the best thing I've ever done. The mutual focus is definitely a big part. You're in a social context, and there is no place to stray from the mutual task, and that discipline is very liberating, weird as it may sound, for someone prone to procrastinating like myself.

There are some pre-requisites to Pair programming. That you need to have a well defined task, that you need not be bogged down by insane deadlines and can afford to have 2 people work on the same thing and both need to be well versed at the task at hand to live up to the promise of productivity. My experience pair programming for a year was sh*tty enough to never consider it again unless I have these pre-reqs met. I'd much rather split tasks, work independently and then touch base often.

Re: I let a stranger watch me work for a day and I've never been more productive

#55

Post by k__ »

BurningFrog wrote: post #39

My first month of pair programming was utterly exhausting, but once I got into the pace, it was the best thing I've ever done. The mutual focus is definitely a big part. You're in a social context, and there is no place to stray from the mutual task, and that discipline is very liberating, weird as it may sound, for someone prone to procrastinating like myself.

I think this has mostly to do with the tasks at hand.

I know a bunch of people who hate their jobs and would feel pretty bad if someone would supervise them 40h a week, even if they may perform better under such supervision.

Re: I let a stranger watch me work for a day and I've never been more productive

#56

Post by ncallaway »

systemizer wrote: post #25
drdeca wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For me, guilt/shame is something to be overcome, not used as a tool. Wow, I think I quite strongly disagree. What do you think it exists _for_ ? It is good for society that people have the capacity for guilt and shame. If we did not, I cannot see any other recourse other than fear!

Okay, so shame exists because it is good for a society that is built on shame? I don't mean to be derogatory in anyway, but the fact something is stabilizing doesn't mean it is good. I believe there are better ways to build relationships with others

> Okay, so shame exists because it is good for a society that is built on shame?

I think so, yes.

Evolutionarily, as humans, social inclusion was incredibly important. Being removed from a tribe was likely a death sentence. As such, we have some very strong social drivers like shame and embarrassment that people feel quite keenly.

But these social drivers caused people to do things that were good for society. You felt shame if you didn't contribute to hunting or gathering, cooking, planting and harvesting, building structures, raising children, or other crucial societal factors.

I think you're on pretty solid ground to say that shame and embarrassment go a long way toward the foundation of the society we have now.

I do think shame and embarrassment are useful tools that we shouldn't want to get rid of entirely. That being said, I think it's totally fair to question whether our current-society over-relies on these kinds of things, and asking if it would be healthier to scale them back rather than expand them.

Re: I let a stranger watch me work for a day and I've never been more productive

#57

Post by k__ »

travisjungroth wrote: post #33
StaticRedux wrote: post #29

Now do that for a month. Or even a week. You may be more productive bc you don't want to be seen as slacking off with someone watching, but maintaining that kind of pace is untenable. Did you ever get stuck and check your email or Facebook just to give your brain a little break? Did you ever sit, unsure of your next move? Or did you do the first thing you thought of, even if it was wrong, so you didn't look like you…

That’s fine. Having a tool I can use a few hours a few week to get me through things that are the highest product of important and annoying is super valuable. Doesn’t have to be a lifestyle.

True and depending on how much your performance improves it may be freeing time for other stuff.

If you get ten times more stuff done than usual, it would be enough to do this one or two times a week.

Re: I let a stranger watch me work for a day and I've never been more productive

#58

Post by systemizer »

alangpierce wrote: post #52
systemizer wrote: post #8

Anybody else get an immediately negative visceral reaction from this? If I'm understanding this correctly, the aim is to manipulate our sense of shame/guilt to boost productivity. After sitting with the feeling for a bit, here are some ideas that come to mind: 1. Maybe we should ask why we feel shame/guilt in the first place. Is it "normal" to feel this? If it isn't we should not rely on it for our happiness (or prod…

It sounds like you're questioning the whole idea of accountability. The mechanism here is the same as if you have a friend check in on you to help you quit smoking or exercise more or eat better. It's true that you're adding pressure/shame/guilt into your life, but I don't think it's particularly sinister. The way I see it, the mind is extremely complex, and the decisions you make in the moment may not be the decisio…

Thanks for the writeup. I think you're right: the idea of external validation / accountability is definitely involved here as well.

And I think it's easy to read what I wrote to mean that "shame is objectively bad," but that was not my intention. The intention was more to question (and possibly reevaluate) our own relationships to it.

> I find happiness from productivity because I try my best to work on projects that I find meaningful

In the end, it comes down to what makes you thrive, and only you can answer that. Productivity, in its most general sense, can be a way to achieve that. At the same time, for me, it is healthy to question these assumptions every once in a while.

Re: I let a stranger watch me work for a day and I've never been more productive

#59

Post by coldtea »

systemizer wrote: post #51
coldtea wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Okay, so shame exists because it is good for a society that is built on shame? Yes. Shame exists because it gave some evolutionary benefits to the primates who had it, like being able to live in a society and cooperate and don't cheat/kill/fuck over each other as much (if you think we do bad stuff too much, wait till you see what we can do without shame). > I believe there are better ways to build relationships wit…

Good points! I agree the feeling of shame is pre-reflective. At the same time, I think we have the possibility of comporting ourselves in a way-of-being that better copes with shame. For me, By reflectively using your pre-reflective feeling of shame as a tool for productivity feels wrong (and this is personal and I don't have the best words right now to expound that feeling)

>* For me, By reflectively using your pre-reflective feeling of shame as a tool for productivity feels wrong*

Well, with that I agree.

For one, it cheapens the quality and utility of shame.

Following this to the end, could end up with cheating on one's spouse or killing someone feeling only as bad as checking your Facebook page when you should be working...

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