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Laws against lies: Asian governments are trying to curb fake news

economist.com

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Re: Laws against lies: Asian governments are trying to curb fake news

#31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's democratic about outlawing speech?

"Democracy is a system of government where the citizens exercise power by voting." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy If the citizens or elected representatives in a democracy voted to start censoring speech, but continued to empower citizens to vote, it would still be a democratic state in spite of the censorship. An illiberal one, but still democratic.

>it would still be a democratic state

Only through the first election cycle [1].

Your idea is valid in a static, nothing-ever-changes world, with no significant political dynamics to speak of. However, out in the world as we know it, political processes run all the time, the proverbial pendulum swings, and consensus is formed via vocal advocacy and protests.

Right now we have four basic things defined as "political speech": person-to-person conversations; mass communication (press, TV, radio, online videos); peaceful physical actions like assembly and manifestations; and finally donations to candidates, parties and PACs. We protect each and every recognized form of "political speech" exactly because without it the important changes could not happen.

In a world with limited communication, you'd have on one side a small ruling clique, semi detached from daily concerns, a large mass of disenfranchised and zoned out people coasting along in the middle, and on the other side you'd have a small fraction of disenfranchised and either abused or outright persecuted people that can't even raise the wider society's awareness. This is an unstable state, leading to societal collapse in one way or another.

Let people speak effectively, lest they could not protest problems or oppression. Let people speak effectively, lest the wider society couldn't even learn of the problems faced by sub-groups. Being heard is the first, necessary step to having wants and grievances addressed.

--

[1] tiptoeing around Godwin's law

Re: Laws against lies: Asian governments are trying to curb fake news

#32

One thing has been increasingly clear over the last few years: a lot of people are basically OK giving large governments more power and relinquishing what I think of as basic rights. Not just overseas, but here in the US a lot of people just don't care about rights and think the government is the solution to everything if you just give them enough power. Not sure how to keep rights, honestly. The Constitution and the…

The countries without money wouldn’t have the power to keep the other countries from taking their freedom

Re: Laws against lies: Asian governments are trying to curb fake news

#33
post #14
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. About 2 years ago Etsy started banning everyone that was selling crystals and also included "promotes good health or luck" And while that's probably fine to do from a trades perspective, I don't like the notion that we had to start leaning this way. If we keep leaning over at what point are we going to make it illegal to believe in UFOs (as in aliens) and ghosts. There's no scientific evidence to make those…

I think a line needs to be drawn. Those are sort of wacko ideas hard to disprove, but saying "hillary clinton is guilty of ____" or blatantly misrepresenting facts or lieing? that needs to stop.

Why does saying that Hillary Clinton is guilty of something need to stop?

Re: Laws against lies: Asian governments are trying to curb fake news

#34
post #14
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. About 2 years ago Etsy started banning everyone that was selling crystals and also included "promotes good health or luck" And while that's probably fine to do from a trades perspective, I don't like the notion that we had to start leaning this way. If we keep leaning over at what point are we going to make it illegal to believe in UFOs (as in aliens) and ghosts. There's no scientific evidence to make those…

I think a line needs to be drawn. Those are sort of wacko ideas hard to disprove, but saying "hillary clinton is guilty of ____" or blatantly misrepresenting facts or lieing? that needs to stop.

I don't think that needs to stop. Each person is responsible for evaluating the information presented to them and deciding what to believe or not. It is nobody's responsibility to compensate for gullibility, or simply lack of critical thinking, by restricting what information reaches people in the first place. That is called censorship.

Re: Laws against lies: Asian governments are trying to curb fake news

#35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's democratic about outlawing speech?

"Democracy is a system of government where the citizens exercise power by voting." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy If the citizens or elected representatives in a democracy voted to start censoring speech, but continued to empower citizens to vote, it would still be a democratic state in spite of the censorship. An illiberal one, but still democratic.

People tend to think "democracy" = "freedom". But a state can have a massive slave population, and still be a "democracy" as long as a group of citizens vote.

Re: Laws against lies: Asian governments are trying to curb fake news

#36
post #15
post #2

Given most Asian governments' preference for strict and harsh governance this is very concerning.

That's a pretty broad generalisation over a lot of countries that constitute Asia. Japan and Korea for example are consistently ranked above many west european countries in terms of freedom [1]. And many asian countries are at about the middle in these rankings. [1] https://www.cato.org/human-freedom-index-new

Many lines are invisible to westerners because it’s built-in the culture, e.g. ever wonder why they do 90 degree bows?

Re: Laws against lies: Asian governments are trying to curb fake news

#37
post #5
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Think some of the concerns are pretty legitimate. Social Media has been used to coordinate mob violence in multiple Asian countries. How people use social media in different countries is very different.

Language has also been used to coordinate mob violence. So have arms and legs. Public roads have helped in the coordination of violence and human trafficking, and it's time to take roads seriously. Violence is illegal, not the potential pathways.

Is it your belief that there has never been any good public policy other than laws criminalizing violence that have ever had any positive effects on how much violence occurs?

Re: Laws against lies: Asian governments are trying to curb fake news

#38
post #8

Who fact checks the fact checkers?

Interesting idea - are you more likely to be lied to in a) an authoritarian state with laws against fake news b) a democratic state with laws against fake news, or c) a democratic state without laws against fake news?

To be honest, you are likely to be lied to in any of those nations. And none are any more likely than the others to put forward the truth. (Or, "facts" if you prefer.)

So you can't really judge these different nations based on whether government officials lie to you. They all will, let's just put that on the table and accept it. So you need to judge them based on other things. What other freedoms do you enjoy? How many other freedoms? What is the economic upside? (Lots of freedom with no economic opportunity gets old very fast, just ask the average Kenyan.) etc etc etc.

But, yeah, access to 100% of the facts and truth is not something that most of the world's residents will ever have access to unfortunately.

Re: Laws against lies: Asian governments are trying to curb fake news

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's democratic about outlawing speech?

"Democracy is a system of government where the citizens exercise power by voting." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy If the citizens or elected representatives in a democracy voted to start censoring speech, but continued to empower citizens to vote, it would still be a democratic state in spite of the censorship. An illiberal one, but still democratic.

But in order to be a democracy, do you not need the ability for everyone to freely express their political positions as to win over more political allies? If one party controlled all speech then voted that the opposition no longer had any free speech...they would control the entire national conversation. Hardly democratic. North Korea labels itself a "democracy" and holds elections, but no sane person actually believes that claim. The act of voting itself is only one piece of democracy.

Re: Laws against lies: Asian governments are trying to curb fake news

#40
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Japan and Korea being highly developed nations with with capital punishment, unlike the developed nations of Europe, seems to support his point. Those were your counter-examples, probably because next to Singapore they look moderate, but they're not even good counter-examples. In 2014, 80% of adults in Japan supported capital punishment, making it far more popular in Japan than it is even in America: https://www.japa…

I'm not sure how capital punishment is relevant, but the US also has capital punishment, in spite of being "developed" and ranking high on the index. And the number of people actually being executed in the US is much higher than Japan or Korea. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment#Capital_pun...

Everyone here knows America has the death penalty. That's probably a big part of why you compared Japan to "western european countries" rather than America. Saying that a country has saner law and order than America is considered damning with faint praise.

To reiterate: America executes more people than Japan, but in Japan execution is far more popular than in America. In America, capital punishment is very controversial, but in Japan it enjoys broad public support.

To the original point, per wikipedia:

>"Of the countries/regions categorized as 'very high' on the Human Development Index, 10 countries perform capital punishment: the United States, Japan, Singapore, Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates, Kuwait, Bahrain, Belarus, Oman, and Taiwan"

Of those, one is in North America, one in Eastern Europe, five in the Middle East, and three in Asia. It strains credibility to suggest that Asia, moreso than Western Europe, is known for a progressive justice system.

> "I'm not sure how capital punishment is relevant"

Because the matter being discussed is "most Asian governments' preference for strict and harsh governance."

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