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Laws against lies: Asian governments are trying to curb fake news

economist.com

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Re: Laws against lies: Asian governments are trying to curb fake news

#21
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a pretty broad generalisation over a lot of countries that constitute Asia. Japan and Korea for example are consistently ranked above many west european countries in terms of freedom [1]. And many asian countries are at about the middle in these rankings. [1] https://www.cato.org/human-freedom-index-new

Japan and Korea being highly developed nations with with capital punishment, unlike the developed nations of Europe, seems to support his point. Those were your counter-examples, probably because next to Singapore they look moderate, but they're not even good counter-examples. In 2014, 80% of adults in Japan supported capital punishment, making it far more popular in Japan than it is even in America: https://www.japa…

I'm not sure how capital punishment is relevant, but the US also has capital punishment, in spite of being "developed" and ranking high on the index. And the number of people actually being executed in the US is much higher than Japan or Korea.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment#Capital_pun...

Re: Laws against lies: Asian governments are trying to curb fake news

#22
post #14
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. About 2 years ago Etsy started banning everyone that was selling crystals and also included "promotes good health or luck" And while that's probably fine to do from a trades perspective, I don't like the notion that we had to start leaning this way. If we keep leaning over at what point are we going to make it illegal to believe in UFOs (as in aliens) and ghosts. There's no scientific evidence to make those…

I think a line needs to be drawn. Those are sort of wacko ideas hard to disprove, but saying "hillary clinton is guilty of ____" or blatantly misrepresenting facts or lieing? that needs to stop.

Who draws the line?

Re: Laws against lies: Asian governments are trying to curb fake news

#23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting idea - are you more likely to be lied to in a) an authoritarian state with laws against fake news b) a democratic state with laws against fake news, or c) a democratic state without laws against fake news?

What's democratic about outlawing speech?

"Democracy is a system of government where the citizens exercise power by voting." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy

If the citizens or elected representatives in a democracy voted to start censoring speech, but continued to empower citizens to vote, it would still be a democratic state in spite of the censorship. An illiberal one, but still democratic.

Re: Laws against lies: Asian governments are trying to curb fake news

#24
post #6
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Think some of the concerns are pretty legitimate. Social Media has been used to coordinate mob violence in multiple Asian countries. How people use social media in different countries is very different.

Has that actually happened in Singapore though? I usually read about those kinds of incidents in rural communities which are recently and rapidly becoming internet connected. Not in densely populated and highly educated city-states which have been highly connected for decades. Also this makes it sound like Singapore is less worried about mobs and more about cultural values > K. Shanmugam, the law minister, warned law…

I suppose that mentioning Lady Gaga and Ariana Grande is just a ploy to enlist trad-con support for the bill. The real reason is that government power very much depends on controlling the official narrative while making sure that alternative ones do not gain much traction. This was so much easier to do when information was primarily distributed through centralized media, such as newspapers, radio, and television. Governments simply had much more power back then. The internet has eroded it. So, either they give up some of that excess power, or else they somehow manage to centralize the internet. The societal control that we inherited from the past is no longer compatible with decentralized distribution of information on the internet. The very fact that we are interactively discussing this topic today, instead of merely swallowing what is supposedly best for us, demonstrates the point actually quite nicely.

Re: Laws against lies: Asian governments are trying to curb fake news

#25
post #5
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Think some of the concerns are pretty legitimate. Social Media has been used to coordinate mob violence in multiple Asian countries. How people use social media in different countries is very different.

Language has also been used to coordinate mob violence. So have arms and legs. Public roads have helped in the coordination of violence and human trafficking, and it's time to take roads seriously. Violence is illegal, not the potential pathways.

I think what you are saying is true for the US, but if you travel, don't make the mistake of thinking our laws follow you everywhere. Whenever I am in different nations, especially the nations I know have strict laws, such as Cuba, I always leave the idea of the Constitution at the customs desk. You're under their laws. What is legal or illegal, is whatever they say is legal or illegal.

So don't travel the world thinking that what you just stated is true. Potential pathways to violence may, indeed, be illegal in the nation to which you are traveling. And punishments can be harsh. They can, will, and have sentenced people to death for being caught with drugs for instance. No murder. No guns. No violence. No nothing. Just caught with drugs -> death.

I always strongly urge people, especially young people, to be aware of the legal environment in any nation to which they are traveling.

Re: Laws against lies: Asian governments are trying to curb fake news

#26
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's only a matter of time before flat earth becomes illegal too. Flat earth has been around for as long as the internet, but in the past year or so the amount of unbridled anger it causes has been increasing disturbing. The "righteous anger at people being wrong on the internet" phenomena seems to be truly intoxicating; it needs to be reigned while we still can. (And just so we're clear, the earth is round . It's a…

So why can't we allow people to believe that, and like the market, let less people trust and support them, rather than actually make laws that might put them in jail?

I guess I wasn't clear. I am suggesting that people calm down and temper their anger against flat earthers. I don't believe that it should be illegal, nor to I believe it should make people angry. I think it's unhealthy to be angry about such things.

Do you remember that guy who made a hydrogen peroxide rocket, said that he was going to check if the earth was actually round? Got a lot of support from flat earthers? He also got a ton of vitriol from 'sensible' round earthers too. A LOT of vitriol. People hoping he would die. Why? Because an Evel Knievel wannabe would joke around with internet memes about the earth being flat to fund his stunt? That's cause to wish his death? It was deranged. After he pulled off his stunt, comment threads across the internet about it had people lamenting his survival. People earnestly wanted this man (whom they'd never met!) to die, simply because he said the earth was flat. Even if he were sincere in that belief, which is doubtful, that's not any reason to become angry with him.

Re: Laws against lies: Asian governments are trying to curb fake news

#27
post #5
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Think some of the concerns are pretty legitimate. Social Media has been used to coordinate mob violence in multiple Asian countries. How people use social media in different countries is very different.

Language has also been used to coordinate mob violence. So have arms and legs. Public roads have helped in the coordination of violence and human trafficking, and it's time to take roads seriously. Violence is illegal, not the potential pathways.

> Violence is illegal, not the potential pathways.

Finally someone with sense on hacker news!

Re: Laws against lies: Asian governments are trying to curb fake news

#28

One thing has been increasingly clear over the last few years: a lot of people are basically OK giving large governments more power and relinquishing what I think of as basic rights. Not just overseas, but here in the US a lot of people just don't care about rights and think the government is the solution to everything if you just give them enough power. Not sure how to keep rights, honestly. The Constitution and the…

They are evil but sadly they do deliver results and are right a lot so far. (Sorry to quote amazon LP)

On the other hand, for some reason democratic negotiations become harder with no parties willing to make trade-offs

Re: Laws against lies: Asian governments are trying to curb fake news

#29
post #3

Unless there is some precise definition of fake news, this is just censorship in sheep's clothing.

> Unless there is some precise definition of fake news, this is just censorship in sheep's clothing.

Singaporean here. This is the bill that was proposed in Singapore's parliament on 1 April (PDF): https://www.parliament.gov.sg/docs/default-source/default-do...

The problem that many people have with the bill, as it is, is that it gives the power to Singapore's government ministers to issue "correction" or "stop communication" directions, on the entirely arbitrary grounds of "public interest".

There is a definition of "public interest" in the bill, but it includes a section which contains broad terms like "… to prevent a diminution of public confidence in [the government and its bodies]". The courts have no power to determine whether the public interest need is legitimate.

Second, the bill is procedurally flawed. An entity issued with an order by the minister must comply immediately, or can be charged with non-compliance. If they wish to contest the order, they have to first appeal to the minister, which is not obliged to reply within a fixed period of time. It is only after a minister rejects their appeal that they are allowed to file a case in the High Court (which requires expensive legal representation, unlike the State Courts).

This allows a minister to effectively delay the appeal process indefinitely.

Furthermore, unlike defamation, the minister also has the power to require the given entity to publish a specifically-worded apology (at their own expense).

This is worse than mere censorship — it's giving the government the power to make people say things.

Finally, note that the Singapore government is claiming to have jurisdiction over all media, as long as it is communicated to an end user in Singapore. Content publishers and their intermediaries will also be affected by this law.

Re: Laws against lies: Asian governments are trying to curb fake news

#30
post #18

Fake News is a problem. without removing the basic freedom of speech, here is a law that'll curb it. When posting on Social Media, you must use a) Verified Name with a Verified Pic or b) Reusable anonymous ID like anonymous-323876 (Generic face profile for all anonymous users). or c) Fully Anonymous like anonymous with a common,generic face profile Sites can only use PII for verification, but must discard everything…

What leads you to believe the people spreading fake news on WhatsApp and Facebook, leading to death and violence, aren't already real people using their real names?

In articles like https://www.wired.com/story/how-whatsapp-fuels-fake-news-and... there's no mention of anonymous, fake, or untraceable accounts, just real people being outraged and sharing misleading, sensationalized, or outright fake news, ultimately leading to tragedy.

Not to mention, your proposal is barely different from what Facebook already does.

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