Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job • Hacker News Board

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#291

Post by themoonbus » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 4:29 PM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #157

luiscleto wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unionisation may help, but the only practical solution is for people to stop taking on terrible jobs because of some sense of 'passion', and to go where their skills are appreciated/where they're treated better/fairly compensated This. Unionisation is basically an attempt to reject the reality that there isn't enough demand for all that labor to be valuable at/above market-average. Ultimately I don't think there is…

You don't need to look any further than the film/TV industry in the US. There are any number of guilds with various rules and minimum pay scales, etc. It doesn't keep countless people from waiting tables in LA hoping for their big break.

The job of the guild / union isn't to give everyone a job who wants one, though. It's to ensure that people who have a job are treated fairly.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#292

Post by Balgair » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 4:30 PM UTC

CM30 wrote: post #97

> For many kids who grew up with controllers in their hands, being a game developer is a dream job, so when it comes to talent, supply is higher than demand This is basically the reason for low wages in quite a few 'passion' driven industries. If a job is something enough people want to do, then talent is cheap and plentiful and companies can provide low wages and poor conditions that for every person who quits, ten…

For an example of unionization and certification issues that deal with this, look at the medical field.

There are many more people that want to be doctors than there are spots in med schools (US-centric view point here). The AMA artificially keeps the enrollment numbers at med-schools low, so as to drive demand for doctors in general and therefore, increase their wages. The AMA is well aware of the current shortage of pediatricians and over-abundance of cardiologists. Though the employment dynamics of literal brain-surgeons are a bit different teachers or gig-bassists, they do largely follow the same patterns in terms of pay. Granted, most MDs in the US really are very good at their jobs, so I'm not all that put-off when they literally save the lives of my loved ones (money has no value there).

Compare this to nurses and their employment dynamics. Phlebotomists aren't paid badly, but they aren't paid well either. Their shifts are hectic, long, and erratic. Hospice nursing in the US is nearly criminal in it's underpayment and overwork, especially for the emotional labor that goes into it. The reason here is that there is a vast oversupply of people that want to be nurses and in medicine.

The core issue with both cases is that such jobs provide meaning to people that want to do those jobs.

They trade off different things for that value. MDs trade their 20s and a lottery ticket into med school for that meaning in their lives, nurses trade comfort and pay for that meaning in their lives. MDs have what amounts to a very strong union, nurses (generally, but there are many exceptions in the US) do not have as strong of a union.

Generally, any profession that provides meaning in the life of a human will either be very underpaid/overworked OR will have a very strong union/credentialing system to pass before becoming employed. We all regress to the same level of misery.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#293

Post by madsushi » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 4:30 PM UTC

ngngngng wrote: post #267

I have a hard time feeling any sympathy for someone that follows a career path in which supply is higher than demand, and then they whine when they have to deal with the economic impact of supply being higher than demand.

Supply and demand aren’t perfectly measurable values.

Supply and demand change all the time, and can even shift while you’re in school, or over the 40+ expected years of most careers.

Telling someone to pick a career where demand > supply forever is impossible because if you believe in the market, supply will rise to meet demand.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#294

Post by rubicon33 » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 4:30 PM UTC

It's incredible reading through the comments on this post and nobody seems to see the game industry for what it is: the canary in the coal mine.

Programming within the game industry is sliding rapidly toward blue collar, and you'd be a fool to assume the problem is contained. The problem for programmers is simple - Supply and Demand.

Thanks to a massive publicity push from big tech, the public is being sold - hook line and sinker - a story about how we're in a "shortage of developers" and how everyone needs to "learn to code". Combine that with the plethora of boot camps, and online materials, and it's never been easier to pickup JavaScript on a weekend and be coding a website.

I've never seen people shoot themselves in the foot more. For god sakes, you're sawing your foot off at this point. There is now a massive wave of young developers, just getting their footing who will be entering a work force near you in the next 10-20 years. And don't forget about remote workers, they gun for your job too. It's becoming more and more technically feasible for a software shop in the US to hire a dev team based in, I dunno, China. I've seen it happen to a group of incredible devs. At the end of the day, the numbers didn't pencil in their favor.

Ask yourselves if you really think the good times will always roll. Really ask yourself if Obama standing up in front of the nation beckoning for everyone to "Learn to Code" was really good for you, or good for the big tech companies that got him up there? Wake up, and smell the ashes. There are industry and economic forces actively working AGAINST you. Don't help them. Stop parroting the narrative that there is a "shortage of developers", for starters. And hedge your bets while you're at it - get really good at something. Specialize. Maybe it's firmware, maybe it's iOS AR, maybe its machine learning, find something niche, and get world class level good at it. In 15 years, hopefully you'll be one of the few still making "6 figure salaries".

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#295

Post by matwood » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 4:32 PM UTC

whatshisface wrote: post #39

Pfhreak wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience it was the ic level. Leadership would say, what's a reasonable timeline for feature x. The engineers would spend two hours arguing that estimates are bullshit, then give a trivially small (and obviously wrong) estimate. Leadership would say, are you sure? Engineers would basically flip them the bird and say yes. Then inevitably be late. I get it, estimating is inexact. But there's a clear difference…

Why wouldn't they give a trivially large (and very safe) estimate? Telling someone you will be finished tomorrow puts the onus on you to explain why your estimate was wrong.

I've seen people put low estimates on things so they would be able to start something knowing that once started it was likely that we would continue working on it until completion.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#296

Post by soup10 » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 4:32 PM UTC

gowld wrote: post #109

EliRivers wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

they need to realize that they have a unique and valuable skill set The competition to be a low-paid drone in game development is huge; significantly more than in non game dev. The games industry is powered by huge numbers of low-experience software engineers. They get paid in glamour and the thrill of being able to tell their friends they work in games. They could leave and go somewhere else for more money, but they…

People say that, but what's the glamour? Do you have friends in AAA gamedev? Do you think that's cool? Do their parents? Their little brothers? You know who is cool? the 2-3 people who designed and built Pac-Mac, or Legend of Zelda, or Braid, or Papers Please. Not the people making guns for Call of War 7 that's a clone of a dozen other AAA games.

working on a AAA game that everyone has heard of is going to get you more kudos than some hipster indie title(looking at you Papers Please)

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#297

Post by magduf » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 4:32 PM UTC

navigatesol wrote: post #194

magduf wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>but by extension that unions are evil, corrupt and lazy organizations infiltrated by organized crime. That's because, in the US, it's all true, historically. Auto unions were a big reason why Detroit's automakers were so uncompetitive against the Japanese automakers in the 80s; autoworkers got ridiculous pay for menial work, which is why Detroit moved a lot of their production to Mexico and Canada, and other automak…

> which is why Detroit moved a lot of their production to Mexico and Canada Well, I'm pretty sure those auto jobs in Canada were also high paying and unionized. Source: I worked for one through University.

>Well, I'm pretty sure those auto jobs in Canada were also high paying and unionized.

That just supports my argument even more. It's not unions that are the problem, it's unions in America.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#298

Post by ggregoire » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 4:34 PM UTC

CydeWeys wrote: post #149

armagon wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the best way to leave? I look at the experience required on the 'Who is Hiring' threads and sigh -- how am I supposed to get two years' professional experience using a technology that has nothing to do with games, or, how do I pick which tech to invest my time in, given that everything seems to be changing so quickly?

If you're a good developer, and it seems like a lot of people leaving the games industry are, it's not hard. Study up on your Cracking the Coding Interview, HackerRank, Leetcode, and similar stuff, and then just interview for Software Engineer positions. On your resume, list your previous experience as something like "Software Engineer, EA Games, 2016-present" (and include the names of any big games you worked on tha…

This is necessary only if you apply to Google and co. Most companies will never ask you to reverse a binary tree. Especially if the company is not in the US.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#299

Post by ebiester » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 4:34 PM UTC

thr0awaz wrote: post #285

ben509 wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So the “practical” solution is to change human nature? We could at least stop giving young people terrible advice like, "you can do anything, live your dream!" "Get a practical job to pay the bills, and do your dream as a side gig," is a pretty reasonable compromise. Most people are have a low tolerance for risk and it's a problem when they get into a field that requires being a risk taker. That tolerance for risk…

If we're honest with kids, it's going to be hard to get them to do anything. "Well.. Tina's going to get a great job whatever she does, and however little effor she puts into it, but it's because her mom's a doctor and they have a lot of money. It doesn't matter if she owns an iPhone X and doesn't do homework. You need to, and it doesn't matter if you really love cooking because chefs make like $10 an hour and you ne…

Ah, but she's uphill on that investment banking job as well - she's looking at vast odds for getting into Harvard. Tina's mom went to Harvard, so she's legacy and has classes to improve her SAT and her grades from her private school Ivy League feeder are artificially inflated.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#300

Post by mobiuscog » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 4:39 PM UTC

adrianhel wrote: post #240

slg wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>In this case, the demand is “the ability to express myself to a huge audience.” People are willing to pay to do that. Because of that, they see any job where they get to do it as a net positive, even if the job is horrible. This is true for any job that is just an extension of a hobby. People put on local community theater productions in their spare time because they find it fun and fulfilling. You don't have to pay…

And the type of software people make for free is not the same software people get paid to create. I bet few people would be eager to develop banking software on their free time for instance.

It's not about creating the software, so much as supporting it.