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Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

nytimes.com

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Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#261

Post by sokoloff »

CM30 wrote: post #97

> For many kids who grew up with controllers in their hands, being a game developer is a dream job, so when it comes to talent, supply is higher than demand This is basically the reason for low wages in quite a few 'passion' driven industries. If a job is something enough people want to do, then talent is cheap and plentiful and companies can provide low wages and poor conditions that for every person who quits, ten…

> the only practical solution is for people to stop taking on terrible jobs because of some sense of 'passion', and to go where their skills are appreciated/where they're treated better/fairly compensated.

I worked a couple years in game industry (shipping an auto racing game for Playstation and contributing to a few other titles; I did sleep under my desk a few nights during crunch time so we'd have a demo ready for E3).

My overall experience was amazing. I have a passion for motorsports and loved gaming as a kid. Part of the overall enjoyment (read: value proposition) I derived from that position was that it was in motorsports and gaming. I loved going into a computer store and seeing "my" game on the shelf. I look forward to showing my kids the game [that will look like crap now by comparison]. (I also, without any hard feelings, left the industry because it was clear that it wasn't going to get me where I wanted to be financially.)

I don't think that people should be prevented (or even shamed) for taking on work that they are passionate about. I'm glad I did it; I had some great experiences [spending Speedweek in the hot pits as a business trip is great], worked with some amazingly talented and passionate people, and took away some great memories before moving on(/selling out? :) ).

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#262

Post by ghaff »

archgoon wrote: post #258
adrianhel wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the type of software people make for free is not the same software people get paid to create. I bet few people would be eager to develop banking software on their free time for instance.

People would not want to build banking software for a specific company; however, if banks were to describe their problems in a sufficiently well defined way, people would cheerfully build various 'bank frameworks' for free. Some college student would happily have it on their resume. This of course would have to have banks be more open about how they operate, so it probably won't happen. This is to say, it's not reall…

Might be starting to happen more than you think.

AMQP (messaging) came out of JPMC and other financial institutions

Financial institutions are also involved in blockchain projects

Another random example: https://developer.capitalone.com/open-source/

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#263

Post by bubblewrap »

CydeWeys wrote: post #151
bubblewrap wrote: post #46

They are not being exploited. They are free to take on another job. Especially coders could certainly find jobs in other industries. And "Fortnite" is not the games industry. There are a variety of ways to make a living making games.

And they're also free to, rather than leave their dream career, push for unionization instead and fight to remain inside it. Just leaving is one choice, but fighting is another.

Sure, they are free to do that. I mostly take issue with the framing by the NYT, talking of "exploitation" and unionization as the only choice/way to fight back. Especially the "exploitation" bit - game developers are not slaves, by a long stretch. If work conditions are bad, it is because many people fancy their job over the alternatives.

You could also "fight" by creating your own game studio with better work conditions, for example.

In my personal view, unionization is just blackmailing. That's my personal opinion, though (guess that doesn't make me better than the NYT, but at least I state it as my opinion, not as absolute truth).

I am not sympathetic to unionization, because I think it probably harms the game developers who are currently unemployed, and it is not really fair play imo (it is banking on arbitrary laws that are not rooted in economic reality).

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#264

Post by terryschiavo22 »

reitanqild wrote: post #78
lovetocode wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not knowledgeable enough of unions to take an informed position on their merits. My impression was that unions are often an image of protection and nothing more. I could be wrong about that though.

Not unionized since unions cannot seem to stick to protecting my rights and always expands into supporting socialism and meddling with foreign policy. That said my views on unions have become less negative: as someone pointed out - at least around here the construction companies with highest percentage of unionized workers are generally the most profitable ones year after year. Why? I can only guess but I guess peopl…

Yeah, I can respect that. No one else seems to empathize with this stance though.

Unions are a tool for workers to come together and collectively negotiate working conditions and compensation with their company. That's it. Allowing Unions to collect fees such that they can donate to political blurs the original intent of the Union in the first place. I would support a bill banning Unions from donating to political causes so that we can all get back to remembering that Unions are a useful, narrow, and focused tool that does one thing super well.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#265

Post by ahelwer »

chrisseaton wrote: post #203
ahelwer wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions improve compensation by increasing the share of the profits pie given (or returned, rather) to labor, not by putting a stranglehold on new hiring.

> Unions improve compensation by increasing the share of the profits pie given (or returned, rather) to labor, not by putting a stranglehold on new hiring. How do you think they magically achieve this? Surprise - it's by threatening to restrict supply (not working for the company if they don't agree to the union's terms.)

Threatening to strike is much different from restricting the people who can work for the union?

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#266

Post by jimmy1 »

chrisco255 wrote: post #206
jimmy1 wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The easiest way to debunk your claim that it is purely propaganda is to give easy counter-examples. In this case, may I present to you New York's finest: The MTA and LIRR. where rampant abuse of the system is everywhere and somehow, amazingly, have one of the highest disability claim rates out of any group of workers in the country. Either working for the MTA or LIRR is one of the most dangerous jobs in the country,…

An "employee owned organization" seems like a better alternative to unions, in my opinion.

Really I don't think you need unions at all, at least not now in the information age. If all employees across various industries simply shared salary figures (adjusted for cost of living, of course, to be fair), it would have the same effect as most of the benefits of union membership. That knowledge by itself would be incredibly empowering. The late Alan Kruger pointed this out when reflecting on the famous "Card and Krueger" experiment.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#268

Post by departure »

ghaff wrote: post #157
luiscleto wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unionisation may help, but the only practical solution is for people to stop taking on terrible jobs because of some sense of 'passion', and to go where their skills are appreciated/where they're treated better/fairly compensated This. Unionisation is basically an attempt to reject the reality that there isn't enough demand for all that labor to be valuable at/above market-average. Ultimately I don't think there is…

You don't need to look any further than the film/TV industry in the US. There are any number of guilds with various rules and minimum pay scales, etc. It doesn't keep countless people from waiting tables in LA hoping for their big break.

I think developers are more like the background technical staff and startup founders are the big name actor equivalents. Founders move to SF, work hard, and generally struggle trying to become Zuckerburg as much as LA actors trying to become Chris Pratt.

But for every movie with the Micheal Bay or The Rock there are hundreds of unionized workers creating the explosions, car chases, and sets in the background. Just like developers they're the ones that make the production work but no one knows our name. (with few exceptions like John Carmack, but then again there are special effects experts with tv shows)

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#269

Post by marcelr »

sokoloff wrote: post #261
CM30 wrote: post #97

> For many kids who grew up with controllers in their hands, being a game developer is a dream job, so when it comes to talent, supply is higher than demand This is basically the reason for low wages in quite a few 'passion' driven industries. If a job is something enough people want to do, then talent is cheap and plentiful and companies can provide low wages and poor conditions that for every person who quits, ten…

> the only practical solution is for people to stop taking on terrible jobs because of some sense of 'passion', and to go where their skills are appreciated/where they're treated better/fairly compensated. I worked a couple years in game industry (shipping an auto racing game for Playstation and contributing to a few other titles; I did sleep under my desk a few nights during crunch time so we'd have a demo ready for…

You seem like the exception rather than the rule.. I don't think anyone is suggesting people not follow their passions, its more about people not knowing what they're getting themselves into most of the time.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#270

Post by chrisseaton »

ahelwer wrote: post #265
chrisseaton wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unions improve compensation by increasing the share of the profits pie given (or returned, rather) to labor, not by putting a stranglehold on new hiring. How do you think they magically achieve this? Surprise - it's by threatening to restrict supply (not working for the company if they don't agree to the union's terms.)

Threatening to strike is much different from restricting the people who can work for the union?

In both cases you could be happy with the offered compensation but be forced to not work for the company anyway.
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