Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job • Hacker News Board

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#181

Post by CM30 » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 3:08 PM UTC

monsieurbanana wrote: post #112

CM30 wrote: post #97

> For many kids who grew up with controllers in their hands, being a game developer is a dream job, so when it comes to talent, supply is higher than demand This is basically the reason for low wages in quite a few 'passion' driven industries. If a job is something enough people want to do, then talent is cheap and plentiful and companies can provide low wages and poor conditions that for every person who quits, ten…

That's only one half of the solution, the other half is taking into consideration that there's less demand for video games critics than there's people wanting to do it, and possibly choose another less crowded career.

Well, the article mostly focused on game development rather than game journalism, but you're right, both fields have many of the same issues.

In fact, video game journalism may be the worst of both the game development and media worlds, since it's got all the downsides of both (low pay, long hours, unstable employment, companies struggling) plus an endless supply of newcomers who (like with game development) think it'll be their dream job.

Oh, and the basic skill requirements to get employed are really low too. So it's like a minimum wage career people are passionate about getting into where pretty much anyone can do the work.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#182

Post by papermill » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 3:09 PM UTC

wmil wrote: post #28

Jason Schreier has been pushing for game developers to unionize for a while now. In the case of programmers, it really doesn't make much sense. There's a lot of BS that can come with unions. They have transferable skills. It's just easier to change jobs. For more specialized workers a union probably does make sense, eg: 3d artists, game testers. But I think union organizers are really only interested in the programme…

Jason Schreier has never worked as developer or in the gaming industry. It's insane how so many people give these people so much credence and attention. The guy literally doesn't know what he is a talking about. Also 3d artists and game testers/QA/etc are transferable skills just like programmers.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#183

Post by jtms » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 3:10 PM UTC

terragon wrote: post #70

collyw wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out if interest is writing games any more fun than writing web / database apps?

In that case, you pay for it with a lower salary. If that's not an acceptable tradeoff, you can always make your dream indie game on weekends.

I work as a freelance web dev and typically have a week (or even a month) between contracts to chase that indie game dev dream. It’s a tough juggling act, but it’s better than trying to moonlight

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#184

Post by Jasper_ » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 3:11 PM UTC

kaitai wrote: post #57

trpc wrote: post #3

Legally exploiting others and making a fortune is a dream job. EDIT: not my belief btw, this is how things mostly work in the business world but most people who do that aren't self conscious enough to recognize that

There are a lot of downvotes to this comment and I don't think it deserves it. I think the comment adds something substantive to the discussion. If you want to rise far in our economic system, a willingness or eagerness to figure out how to exploit others legally is a definite advantage. All the HN discussion here is about, "Those workers should find something else to do!" All about the self, maybe a bit about unions…

Story time. I worked at a decently-sized game studio, and lived through a very well-publicized shutdown. The company didn't make enough money, and on the one game that made a lot of money, the publisher got most of it, because executives signed a very bad deal. Tensions were high, disagreements with managements were huge, and crunch was a big issue. We had too many projects. There was light at the end of the tunnel when new estaff came in, cut down on some of the chaff and refocused us around some better games, but it was too late. The company was already doomed; something something deck chairs on the Titanic.

As for where the money went? Salaries, publishers, investors. There's still a grudge held for the new CEO, because he laid us off without severance; if there was another round of layoffs with severance months earlier, everyone would have been understanding. We all knew our games didn't sell well anyway.

A lot of those people will find it difficult to get other work. Most employees in a game studio are not engineers -- games has 10 artists to 1 programmer. And the big tech companies don't have a culture of respecting non-engineers. So, where does a character TD go who has experience with painting vertex weights in Maya for a rig? To another games studio.

Outside of that though, the team and culture was amazing. I loved everyone I worked with, all of the developers were smart, capable and talented. Not just the engineers, but also the artists, sound designers, cinematics team, etc. These people are very understood outside of games, because they are as much "problem solvers" like engineers as they are creatives.

I still meet with ex-alumni from the studio to play Rock Band -- in fact, we're meeting up again tonight.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#185

Post by mdale » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 3:11 PM UTC

derefr wrote: post #171

CM30 wrote: post #97

> For many kids who grew up with controllers in their hands, being a game developer is a dream job, so when it comes to talent, supply is higher than demand This is basically the reason for low wages in quite a few 'passion' driven industries. If a job is something enough people want to do, then talent is cheap and plentiful and companies can provide low wages and poor conditions that for every person who quits, ten…

> the only practical solution is for people to stop taking on terrible jobs because of some sense of 'passion' So the “practical” solution is to change human nature? That doesn’t sound right. It’d be like saying that the practical solution to human trafficking is for people to stop visiting prostitutes; or that the solution to gangs’ drug income is for people to stop buying drugs. In all these cases, you can quash su…

+1

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#186

Post by UnpossibleJim » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 3:12 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #82

Pfhreak wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having worked in the industry they believe it's necessary. I got yoked into a mandated long weekend and was laughed out of the room when I demanded a retrospective. Long hours is a failure, we should know what failed so it doesn't happen again. Their response? That's just the way it is in games. Absolutely zero desire or acknowledgement that it should be different.

The tech industry in general has a bit of a toxic machismo problem, but it seems to be far worse in games. Probably it's coupled to the wider culture there.

LOL, WTF do machismo and the tech industry have to do with each other? That seems a bit of a stretch to try to connect two disparate topics into a connected "issue". I get the whole problem with Rockstar Games (if that was where you were pointing - I can only assume), but that was a singular studio. As someone who works in the game industry, and has for almost 20 years, that is not representative of the vast majority of game studios. Meek is the work you are looking for, when it comes to game studio employees, at least on the west coast. And that falls in line for most of my acquaintances in the tech industry in general. The only ones who approach "toxic masculinity" (and even then... a hard stretch) are the sales guys.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#187

Post by organizenow » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 3:14 PM UTC

lovetocode wrote: post #6

Game developers let themselves be exploited with low pay and unpaid overtime. They should grow a spine and say no to ridiculous work conditions. I am tired of hearing about it. They don’t need to unionize, they need to realize that they have a unique and valuable skill set. If we are talking specifically about programmers, we have the fortunate leverage to tell our employers to go piss up a rope with the weekly job o…

No, they need a union. Leverage only works if everyone uses it, and collective bargaining is how that happens. If the word “union” bothers you then call it something else. Otherwise you get what we have now: highly mobile individuals able to pull themselves out of bad jobs as individuals, but otherwise unable to affect the industry as a whole.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#188

Post by EpicEng » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 3:14 PM UTC

DangitBobby wrote: post #160

luiscleto wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unionisation may help, but the only practical solution is for people to stop taking on terrible jobs because of some sense of 'passion', and to go where their skills are appreciated/where they're treated better/fairly compensated This. Unionisation is basically an attempt to reject the reality that there isn't enough demand for all that labor to be valuable at/above market-average. Ultimately I don't think there is…

I think it's a difficult claim to make that there's no demand when they specifically state that unpaid overtime is the norm. Why would they need overtime work if there were enough workers?

You answered your own question. The fact that people will put up with all that overtime pretty much sums it up.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#189

Post by organizenow » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 3:15 PM UTC

kcolford wrote: post #75

lovetocode wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I probably jumped the gun on the unionization part. I don’t know a lot about it but my impression of unions is not so bright. Maybe my ignorance is showing with that regard

This comment right here is why I love HN so much. Nowhere else on the internet do I see such civility and humility. Thank you for actively being a part of making this community so wonderful and inclusive. Not to say that the mods don't work hard at this as well nor that there aren't others who contribute positively here. This is just such a perfect example that I'd like to draw attention to it.

Inclusive is an interesting way of putting it.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#190

Post by School-Cotton » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 3:18 PM UTC

armagon wrote: post #107

lvturner wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very easy to say, a lot harder to do Equally, finally leaving the games industry was one of the better things I did.

What is the best way to leave? I look at the experience required on the 'Who is Hiring' threads and sigh -- how am I supposed to get two years' professional experience using a technology that has nothing to do with games, or, how do I pick which tech to invest my time in, given that everything seems to be changing so quickly?

Apply for a generalist position at a company that doesn’t hire for specific technologies (there are lots and lots of these, basically any of the big famous companies and a lot of smaller ones too).