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Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

nytimes.com

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Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#81

Post by [deleted] »

maxehmookau wrote: post #67
lovetocode wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I probably jumped the gun on the unionization part. I don’t know a lot about it but my impression of unions is not so bright. Maybe my ignorance is showing with that regard

My knowledge of unions is based entirely on the UK. They allow groups of employees who are subject to poor conditions to group together and participate in collective bargaining. Most programmers in the UK are not a member of a union as pay is fairly high and conditions relatively good, but the majority of public-sector and a lot of private-sector workers are. Unionising would be an excellent first step for employees…

[deleted]

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#82

Post by pjc50 »

Pfhreak wrote: post #10
lovetocode wrote: post #6

Game developers let themselves be exploited with low pay and unpaid overtime. They should grow a spine and say no to ridiculous work conditions. I am tired of hearing about it. They don’t need to unionize, they need to realize that they have a unique and valuable skill set. If we are talking specifically about programmers, we have the fortunate leverage to tell our employers to go piss up a rope with the weekly job o…

Having worked in the industry they believe it's necessary. I got yoked into a mandated long weekend and was laughed out of the room when I demanded a retrospective. Long hours is a failure, we should know what failed so it doesn't happen again. Their response? That's just the way it is in games. Absolutely zero desire or acknowledgement that it should be different.

The tech industry in general has a bit of a toxic machismo problem, but it seems to be far worse in games. Probably it's coupled to the wider culture there.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#83

Post by thecatspaw »

hannasanarion wrote: post #34
jfk13 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a civilised society, it would be illegal for an employer to behave like that. (Yes, I know, I'm imposing my view of what it would mean to be "civilised", and not everyone will agree.)

There are plenty of countries where all employers are required to give certain notice, and you can't suddenly fire someone. It is outrageous that your ability to eat and pay rent can be taken away with zero notice in America.

That just means they have to pay you for some time after they fired you.

You can still be fired in an instant and be escorted out the door, especially if you have/had access to critical systems

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#84

Post by beatgammit »

azhenley wrote: post #8

It is a dream job if I’m my own boss.

Exactly.

My dream scenario is to be in a situation like Tarn Adams, who works on a game he loves and lives off donations. Ideally, by that point I'd have enough to sustain myself without donations so that source of stress is gone.

I don't want to work in the AAA game industry, I want to work for myself in the indie game industry on a project that both I and my supporters love.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#85

Post by gowld »

lovetocode wrote: post #18
Pfhreak wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having worked in the industry they believe it's necessary. I got yoked into a mandated long weekend and was laughed out of the room when I demanded a retrospective. Long hours is a failure, we should know what failed so it doesn't happen again. Their response? That's just the way it is in games. Absolutely zero desire or acknowledgement that it should be different.

It’s toxic culture at the leadership level. When my employer asks for some outrageous development on a compressed time schedule I speak my mind. Maybe that’s why most AAA games suck these days.

> Maybe that’s why most AAA games suck these days.

This comment shows lack of historical perspective.

All of these complaints have been hot topics since before the term "AAA game" was invented.

AAA games "suck" (if they do, which the customer base's wallets seem to to think so) because they have gotten too good at making money even against their customers' stated preferences, not because they are bad at anything.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#86

Post by gowld »

Nasrudith wrote: post #73
lovetocode wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s toxic culture at the leadership level. When my employer asks for some outrageous development on a compressed time schedule I speak my mind. Maybe that’s why most AAA games suck these days.

I think AAA scale in general leads to some of the "suckage" issues since the problems occur in all large productions. With the capital comes risk aversion and to recoup the costs they go more lowest common denominator in addition to coordination issues with large teams and scaling. Even less overtime intense efforts like live action movies show these flaws. Now they certainly do have unique pathologies related to the…

And earlier Civilizations had game-breaking exploitable bugs. People have been pining for the mythical good old days since the age of Pliny.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#87

Post by Veen »

EliRivers wrote: post #50
lovetocode wrote: post #6

Game developers let themselves be exploited with low pay and unpaid overtime. They should grow a spine and say no to ridiculous work conditions. I am tired of hearing about it. They don’t need to unionize, they need to realize that they have a unique and valuable skill set. If we are talking specifically about programmers, we have the fortunate leverage to tell our employers to go piss up a rope with the weekly job o…

they need to realize that they have a unique and valuable skill set The competition to be a low-paid drone in game development is huge; significantly more than in non game dev. The games industry is powered by huge numbers of low-experience software engineers. They get paid in glamour and the thrill of being able to tell their friends they work in games. They could leave and go somewhere else for more money, but they…

> The competition to be a low-paid drone in game development is huge.

That's precisely why unionization is the best course of action. Game development companies aren't threatened if individual developers demand better treatment because they can be replaced by the next starry-eyed young dev seeking prestige and glamour. But if enough of them unionize and collectively bargain for better conditions, the industry has to listen.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#88

Post by kabacha »

hannasanarion wrote: post #37
lovetocode wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair enough and you are probably right. I come from the position that you can only beat a dog so long before it bites back. But I feel like this could have been prevented if developers weren’t so enamored with the idea of developing games. Yeah it’s cool but it’s not cool enough to throw your dignity away.

And so you kill the dog and get another. People who want to make games are not in short supply.

Software engineering for video games is pretty darn complicated. Surely it must be hard to get hold of the next John Carmack or at least someone remotely close to that. Is demand for good talent really filled here?

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#89

Post by _bxg1 »

lovetocode wrote: post #6

Game developers let themselves be exploited with low pay and unpaid overtime. They should grow a spine and say no to ridiculous work conditions. I am tired of hearing about it. They don’t need to unionize, they need to realize that they have a unique and valuable skill set. If we are talking specifically about programmers, we have the fortunate leverage to tell our employers to go piss up a rope with the weekly job o…

You know what happens when you're in a saturated job market and you "grow a spine and say no to ridiculous work conditions" without a union? You get fired.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#90

Post by maxxxxx »

lovetocode wrote: post #52
maxehmookau wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>They should grow a spine and say no to ridiculous work conditions. YES! You're absolutely right! > They don’t need to unionize. Err... Why on earth not? That would literally be the definition of growing a spine and saying no to ridiculous work conditions but also having it be effective.

I probably jumped the gun on the unionization part. I don’t know a lot about it but my impression of unions is not so bright. Maybe my ignorance is showing with that regard

“Maybe my ignorance is showing with that regard”

I commend you for saying this. Usually people just keep digging in and stick to their previous statement.

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