The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally Makes That Plain • Hacker News Board

Re: The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally Makes That Plain

#41

Post by JumpCrisscross » Thu, Apr 04, 2019, 2:38 PM UTC

Jorge1o1 wrote: post #31

The streets were never free. We paid for it with our tax money. (Not to mention our 22 trillion dollar public debt) I don’t think people expect streets to be free in the same way you don’t expect the police department to be free, the fire department to be free, public schools, etc. In any case, my point is, we paid for the streets with our tax money and our debt, so don’t masquerade this as some kind of “economic rec…

> don’t masquerade this as some kind of “economic reckoning”

In New York, low-income New Yorkers who own a car (or live in the zone) will be eligible for a waiver [1]. People with disabilities, too, will probably be eligible for a waiver. (Some carve-outs are still being pinned down.)

Taxis, Ubers, trucks and cars owned by people who opt to pay hundreds of dollars a month in parking are who will be taxed. Given the unusability of our streets, this seems closer to an economic reckoning than a political money grab.

(Crowded streets have all kinds of nasty externalities. I live in the zone. Crowded streets mean lots of honking at all hours of the day and night. It means the constant smell of brake pads at street level. When I look out of the window and see a stranded ambulance, it's a reminder of the risk my loved ones and I will face when the day comes when we need an ambulance. Et cetera.)

[1] https://710wor.iheart.com/content/2019-04-01-congestion-pric...

Re: The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally Makes That Plain

#42

Post by nathanvanfleet » Thu, Apr 04, 2019, 2:38 PM UTC

mattigames wrote: post #24

This is all kinds of wrong, the problem could be tackled much better, for example most companies have no incentives to hire workers near their premises (or relocating them to make it so), meaning they get no benefit if they emplooyes have a 10 minute commute over a 2 hour commute; car companies have no incentive to build smaller cars, small single-person cars should be far more common but instead we are stuck with hu…

That doesn't really seem true to me. Car companies make products that can sell. People vote with their feet. People make decisions to buy bigger vehicles so that's what is manufactured. If there is increased demand for compact cars the manufacturers will make more (like they do outside of the US). Companies might not seek to hire people nearby but they might put their offices in a more convenient location. Either way you seem to completely miss the idea that alternative methods of transportation like mass transit or bicycles etc might expand in use. Which can cause those things to expand (better mass transit coverage, better and more protected bike paths). Again there are examples all over the world outside of the US.

Re: The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally Makes That Plain

#43

Post by sek » Thu, Apr 04, 2019, 2:38 PM UTC

This will be absolutely necessary when cars are self-driving. Instead of parking they will just drift around the block when you buy something for example. Also there will be empty Uber cars drifting around to be close if somebody needs it. On top you won't worry so much about traffic if you can sleep in you car or do something else.

Driving was always limited by the costs of somebody sitting behind the wheel. Look how congested many cities of third world countries are, low labor costs for cab drivers are a factor there.

Re: The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally Makes That Plain

#44

Post by JumpCrisscross » Thu, Apr 04, 2019, 2:39 PM UTC

Xylakant wrote: post #9

dannyw wrote: post #3

It's sad to see congestion pricing in America. I had hoped that the long-lived cultural freedom of driving would keep it at bay for longer, but I guess not anymore. I live in Sydney. It takes a 45 minute drive to visit a family member, who is sick and homebound. To do so in the shortest and least congested route, I must pay 3 tolls: $14.85 total, one way; $30 dollars a trip. Public transport is not a suitable option.…

Your freedom to drive where ever you choose on the fastest route infringes on freedoms of others, for example: * their freedom to drive on the fastest route possible * their freedom not to have a large road in front of their home * their freedom not to have their taxes invested in a road infrastructure ballooned to a level that they might not need * their freedom to live in a world that is not inflicted by global war…

> Your freedom to drive where ever you choose on the fastest route infringes on freedoms of others

Another example: ambulances. The traffic in Manhattan means ambulances take a really long time to get to and from their patients. Those minutes cost lives.

Re: The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally Makes That Plain

#45

Post by ramraj07 » Thu, Apr 04, 2019, 2:39 PM UTC

jiggliemon wrote: post #27

jdavis703 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know the situation in Sydney as I’ve never been there. But in NYC, which is what the article is about, the funds will go to transportation improvements that make it easier for people to get around. There’ll be more freedom of choice because the subways will be better (and hopefully they’ll add more bike lanes and wider sidewalks).

Any new money for public spending is typically used to pay down the ballooning public pension liabilities. And if it doesn’t go towards pensions, it’s diverted away to other welfare projects, or education. Point is these new funds won’t make transportation better in any significant way.

The proposed budget explicitly says this money will go towards the MTA.

Re: The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally Makes That Plain

#46

Post by kaiju0 » Thu, Apr 04, 2019, 2:39 PM UTC

i_am_proteus wrote: post #25

dec0dedab0de wrote: post #12

When I worked in a major city I would go on a half-joke rant anytime someone brought up traffic, parking,or obesity. If I were somehow the king of a major city, I would have a giant parking lot on the outside, and ban all cars. You could buy day passes if you need access to the roads to move or something, but it would be discouraged. People would walk more, and be healthier, The air would be higher quality, and most…

Also, there wouldn't be many lunch options because delivery services wouldn't be able to use cars and trucks.

Excellent. This would contribute to health. You want something. Walk to get it.

Re: The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally Makes That Plain

#47

Post by arethuza » Thu, Apr 04, 2019, 2:40 PM UTC

dec0dedab0de wrote: post #12

When I worked in a major city I would go on a half-joke rant anytime someone brought up traffic, parking,or obesity. If I were somehow the king of a major city, I would have a giant parking lot on the outside, and ban all cars. You could buy day passes if you need access to the roads to move or something, but it would be discouraged. People would walk more, and be healthier, The air would be higher quality, and most…

Isn't a "giant parking lot on the outside" a Park and Ride?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Park_and_ride

They can work pretty well if you have good transport (e.g. trams/rail) from the Park and Ride into your city.

Re: The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally Makes That Plain

#48

Post by lloydde » Thu, Apr 04, 2019, 2:44 PM UTC

mattigames wrote: post #24

This is all kinds of wrong, the problem could be tackled much better, for example most companies have no incentives to hire workers near their premises (or relocating them to make it so), meaning they get no benefit if they emplooyes have a 10 minute commute over a 2 hour commute; car companies have no incentive to build smaller cars, small single-person cars should be far more common but instead we are stuck with hu…

This is a novel idea, but introduces worse problems of discrimination. You should not use candidates address or commute as criteria in hiring.

I do see companies set up satellite or second offices. I do wonder if an companies of scale use proximities and travel time to influence renewing leases or moving office buildings. What do these formulas look like? What data do they use?

Re: The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally Makes That Plain

#49

Post by CalRobert » Thu, Apr 04, 2019, 2:44 PM UTC

i_am_proteus wrote: post #25

dec0dedab0de wrote: post #12

When I worked in a major city I would go on a half-joke rant anytime someone brought up traffic, parking,or obesity. If I were somehow the king of a major city, I would have a giant parking lot on the outside, and ban all cars. You could buy day passes if you need access to the roads to move or something, but it would be discouraged. People would walk more, and be healthier, The air would be higher quality, and most…

Also, there wouldn't be many lunch options because delivery services wouldn't be able to use cars and trucks.

Which is why there's no restaurants in Venice.

Re: The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally Makes That Plain

#50

Post by supernova87a » Thu, Apr 04, 2019, 2:44 PM UTC

dannyw wrote: post #3

It's sad to see congestion pricing in America. I had hoped that the long-lived cultural freedom of driving would keep it at bay for longer, but I guess not anymore. I live in Sydney. It takes a 45 minute drive to visit a family member, who is sick and homebound. To do so in the shortest and least congested route, I must pay 3 tolls: $14.85 total, one way; $30 dollars a trip. Public transport is not a suitable option.…

"No individual snowflake ever feels responsible for the avalanche"