The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally Makes That Plain • Hacker News Board

Re: The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally Makes That Plain

#21

Post by datastoat » Thu, Apr 04, 2019, 2:29 PM UTC

dannyw wrote: post #3

It's sad to see congestion pricing in America. I had hoped that the long-lived cultural freedom of driving would keep it at bay for longer, but I guess not anymore. I live in Sydney. It takes a 45 minute drive to visit a family member, who is sick and homebound. To do so in the shortest and least congested route, I must pay 3 tolls: $14.85 total, one way; $30 dollars a trip. Public transport is not a suitable option.…

In Sydney you're paying use-charges, rather than congestion pricing (unless you use the Sydney Harbour Bridge / tunnel, which does have congestion pricing, approximated by time-of-day pricing).

https://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/sydney-motorways/toll-charges/ind...

As the NYTimes article says, everyone ends up paying one way or another, whether in taxes, or use-charges, or congestion prices, or delay. The question is how the total cost should be shared.

Re: The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally Makes That Plain

#22

Post by freddie_mercury » Thu, Apr 04, 2019, 2:30 PM UTC

dannyw wrote: post #3

It's sad to see congestion pricing in America. I had hoped that the long-lived cultural freedom of driving would keep it at bay for longer, but I guess not anymore. I live in Sydney. It takes a 45 minute drive to visit a family member, who is sick and homebound. To do so in the shortest and least congested route, I must pay 3 tolls: $14.85 total, one way; $30 dollars a trip. Public transport is not a suitable option.…

Toll roads aren't really related to congestion pricing.

You're paying tolls because those roads were bought and paid for by an ASX traded company: https://www.transurban.com/roads-and-projects/sydney

Re: The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally Makes That Plain

#23

Post by matt4077 » Thu, Apr 04, 2019, 2:31 PM UTC

dannyw wrote: post #3

It's sad to see congestion pricing in America. I had hoped that the long-lived cultural freedom of driving would keep it at bay for longer, but I guess not anymore. I live in Sydney. It takes a 45 minute drive to visit a family member, who is sick and homebound. To do so in the shortest and least congested route, I must pay 3 tolls: $14.85 total, one way; $30 dollars a trip. Public transport is not a suitable option.…

You’re arguing against congestion pricing in lower Manhattan by citing the inadequacy of public transport in Sydney?

In any case: in high density environments such as NY and, yes, Sydney, public transport is the obviously superior option. In Manhattan it is so de facto: current subway trouble nonewithstanding, it is still superior to taking your car into the center. Car traffic in MH moves at about pedestrian streets on average. Economically, parking is unaffordable, and no amount of freedom-loving can change the particular part of physical law that prevents multiple objects from occupying the same coordinates in space and time.

If Sydney is worse, that’s a collective failure to act, and it is having an impact on your quality of life. That should be the subject of you anger.

In Paris, Tokyo, London, and Berlin, investment bankers take the subway. I use that specific group because they are not known to easily succumb to financial pressure or readily defer to some idea of collective benefit in lieu of selfish interests. If they make that choice, it is because it is better even in terms of narrowly defined personal comfort and efficiency.

Re: The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally Makes That Plain

#24

Post by mattigames » Thu, Apr 04, 2019, 2:31 PM UTC

This is all kinds of wrong, the problem could be tackled much better, for example most companies have no incentives to hire workers near their premises (or relocating them to make it so), meaning they get no benefit if they emplooyes have a 10 minute commute over a 2 hour commute; car companies have no incentive to build smaller cars, small single-person cars should be far more common but instead we are stuck with hundreads of people buying the biggest car they can get a loan for.

Re: The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally Makes That Plain

#25

Post by i_am_proteus » Thu, Apr 04, 2019, 2:31 PM UTC

dec0dedab0de wrote: post #12

When I worked in a major city I would go on a half-joke rant anytime someone brought up traffic, parking,or obesity. If I were somehow the king of a major city, I would have a giant parking lot on the outside, and ban all cars. You could buy day passes if you need access to the roads to move or something, but it would be discouraged. People would walk more, and be healthier, The air would be higher quality, and most…

Also, there wouldn't be many lunch options because delivery services wouldn't be able to use cars and trucks.

Re: The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally Makes That Plain

#26

Post by ordinaryradical » Thu, Apr 04, 2019, 2:32 PM UTC

dannyw wrote: post #3

It's sad to see congestion pricing in America. I had hoped that the long-lived cultural freedom of driving would keep it at bay for longer, but I guess not anymore. I live in Sydney. It takes a 45 minute drive to visit a family member, who is sick and homebound. To do so in the shortest and least congested route, I must pay 3 tolls: $14.85 total, one way; $30 dollars a trip. Public transport is not a suitable option.…

If those roads weren’t tolled they too would be full of traffic and it would still take you an inordinate amount of time to get there by that route.

Seems like your sense of restriction originates from the density of your city, not the rules of its roadways.

Re: The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally Makes That Plain

#27

Post by jiggliemon » Thu, Apr 04, 2019, 2:33 PM UTC

jdavis703 wrote: post #15

dannyw wrote: post #3

It's sad to see congestion pricing in America. I had hoped that the long-lived cultural freedom of driving would keep it at bay for longer, but I guess not anymore. I live in Sydney. It takes a 45 minute drive to visit a family member, who is sick and homebound. To do so in the shortest and least congested route, I must pay 3 tolls: $14.85 total, one way; $30 dollars a trip. Public transport is not a suitable option.…

I don’t know the situation in Sydney as I’ve never been there. But in NYC, which is what the article is about, the funds will go to transportation improvements that make it easier for people to get around. There’ll be more freedom of choice because the subways will be better (and hopefully they’ll add more bike lanes and wider sidewalks).

Any new money for public spending is typically used to pay down the ballooning public pension liabilities. And if it doesn’t go towards pensions, it’s diverted away to other welfare projects, or education.

Point is these new funds won’t make transportation better in any significant way.

Re: The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally Makes That Plain

#28

Post by jstanley » Thu, Apr 04, 2019, 2:34 PM UTC

ch4s3 wrote: post #11

dannyw wrote: post #3

It's sad to see congestion pricing in America. I had hoped that the long-lived cultural freedom of driving would keep it at bay for longer, but I guess not anymore. I live in Sydney. It takes a 45 minute drive to visit a family member, who is sick and homebound. To do so in the shortest and least congested route, I must pay 3 tolls: $14.85 total, one way; $30 dollars a trip. Public transport is not a suitable option.…

Congestion pricing is essentially a usage fee, and is highly efficient from an economic perspective. Without charging drivers for roads they get paid for out of general funds. There’s nothing free about non-drivers subsidizing private transportation. Furthermore, at artificially low prices, more people drive until congestion is unmanageable. Without that pricing your 45 minute drive might balloon to twice that amount…

> Congestion pricing is essentially a usage fee, and is highly efficient from an economic perspective.

While I agree in principle, congestion pricing is generally a monopoly and not subject to the ordinary pressures of supply and demand, which means there's little to stop the price from being too low or too high.

Re: The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally Makes That Plain

#29

Post by u10 » Thu, Apr 04, 2019, 2:34 PM UTC

dannyw wrote: post #3

It's sad to see congestion pricing in America. I had hoped that the long-lived cultural freedom of driving would keep it at bay for longer, but I guess not anymore. I live in Sydney. It takes a 45 minute drive to visit a family member, who is sick and homebound. To do so in the shortest and least congested route, I must pay 3 tolls: $14.85 total, one way; $30 dollars a trip. Public transport is not a suitable option.…

There are costs associated with congestion, and those costs are not necessarily incurred by the person generating that cost. It's only fair that these costs are explicitly priced out and charged to those that cause the cost.

Re: The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally Makes That Plain

#30

Post by nathanvanfleet » Thu, Apr 04, 2019, 2:34 PM UTC

bjourne wrote: post #17

I wonder if we (as a society) in the not too distant future can make driving embarrassing? My hope is that if someone sits alone in their big SUV stuck in traffic, pedestrians, cyclists and others will look at that person disparagingly. Like how people look at dog owners not picking up their dogs feces, cigarette smokers or how they look at obese people buying ice cream... Or how hypochondriacs who go to the doctor w…

> Or how hypochondriacs who go to the doctor when they don't need to are shamed in countries with socialized health care. I am from Canada and I have no idea what you're talking about.