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Approval Voting versus Instant Runoff Voting

electionscience.org

41–50 of 96 posts

Re: Approval Voting versus Instant Runoff Voting

#41

As a libertarian anything that increases the ability of a 3rd party go gain traction interest me but something smells very off about the recent uptick in discussion of alternatives. If these changes were actually beneficial to the underdog in the general case you'd see them being pushed by the left or the right on a state by state basis depending on the political make up of any given state. The parties aren't run by…

I'm also libertarian (leaning, in the sense I have voted for libertarian candidates in multiple elections at multiple levels, but not most of the time) but do research on this. I am not sure what to say to allay your concerns, except to say that mathematically/statistically speaking approval voting is what I would implement after a rating system, which I think is the best but also maybe the most cumbersome.

I personally don't really care about the political impetus behind changing the election format (not to say I don't care about politics, just that in the case of alternative voting systems the standard US format is almost the worst you could do). Anything that moves the US toward something better would be an improvement.

My one concern is that for whatever reason ranking systems seem to be the thing being pushed most, when approval or rating systems would probably be better.

Changing to an approval system would probably be the easiest way to increase 3rd party viability at the moment. Which of those 3rd parties would benefit is a different issue, but approval systems allow people to diversify their expressed preferences, so at the very least it wouldn't be worse for 3rd party candidates.

The basic issue is that plurality voting is a very poor measure of preference. Imagine if you were asked to measure height of 5 people in the room, 3 of whom are over 6 feet 10 inches tall. You could report how tall they are; this is most similar to a rating system. You could rank order their heights; this preserves rank ordering information but not anything about absolute difference, so the two people who are 7'2" and 7'1" look as different as the people who are 7'2" and 5'2". You could also ask people to just mark which are taller than 6'10", which at least acknowledges that more than one person could be taller than 6'10", and preserves some info about absolute height. Or, you could do as is standard, and just indicate who is tallest, which doesn't preserve much information at all about height.

Re: Approval Voting versus Instant Runoff Voting

#42
post #12

Does Approval Voting really pass the "favourite betrayal criterion"? There are scenarios where if you don't vote for both Good and Ideal, bad will win, and scenarios where if you do vote for both Good and Ideal, Good will win (over Ideal) You obviously don't know which scenario you're in when you vote, so you don't know whether you should vote for both good+ideal or just ideal - both options can cause a worse result…

Yes, approval voting leaves the door open for some tactical voting. So if candidate #1 would win a simple majority (50.01% of voters), but is absolutely hated by everyone else, but #2 is "acceptable" or second best to 100% of the voters, should #1 win? We are used to the binary "simple majority takes all" in elections, but maybe the compromise "everybody is pretty OK with this one" _should_ win. If it were a group of…

I'm not totally convinced that particular compromise should win. The issue I have with it is whether political candidates should have to please everyone. Using that strategy would likely lead to a lot of charismatic but ineffective people getting elected. None of big issues would get any sort of resolution, because the candidates that the most people are ok with are the ones with the fewest controversial stances.

Re: Approval Voting versus Instant Runoff Voting

#43
post #11

It's a bit silly to argue that candidates take up too much space on a IRV ballot when it would suffice to duplicate only the box and not their name, as in 1st 2nd 3rd choice John Adams [ ] [ ] [ ] Ben Franklin [ ] [ ] [ ] Tom Jefferson [ ] [ ] [ ] Betsy Ross [ ] [ ] [ ]

Further, my jurisdiction's general election has 30+ contests. Ballot real estate is already scarce.

One mitigate is to split our plus-sized ballots into separate federal, state, and local, but no one is considering doing that. The primary argument against is ballot process (central count for vote-by-mail) is already complicated enough.

Re: Approval Voting versus Instant Runoff Voting

#44

Article makes some good arguments for approval voting, but the "Ballot Spoilage" argument is a bit disingenuous. Ballots can't be spoiled in approval voting because any set of circles can be filled in. However it's a lot easier to corrupt a ballot undetected. Just fill in more bubbles for your candidate.

In their example voting form there is a list of candidate names with a bubble next to each.

How can someone “fill in more bubbles for (their) candidate”?

Re: Approval Voting versus Instant Runoff Voting

#45
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this is a non-US problem - in India, we typically have a dozen candidates in every election constituency. IRV is not very practical.

In Australia we have tens of MP candidates in most electorates as well as several dozen senate party candidates with hundreds of individual senator candidates. IRV works perfectly fine here, though in the case of the senate does result in quite wide ballot papers. But if you only have a dozen candidates it's very simple -- you have a list of names and the voter specifies what preference they have (1st, 2nd, 3rd) in t…

actually India mandates EVM - the elections in India are the biggest democratic event in the history of mankind. Its hard to to carry ballot papers over camel in the desert (that's a real thing).

Approval voting is far more suitable for straight scrolling screens.

Re: Approval Voting versus Instant Runoff Voting

#46

Article makes some good arguments for approval voting, but the "Ballot Spoilage" argument is a bit disingenuous. Ballots can't be spoiled in approval voting because any set of circles can be filled in. However it's a lot easier to corrupt a ballot undetected. Just fill in more bubbles for your candidate.

The argument for "Ballot Simplicity" is misleading too They seem to have tried to intentionally tried to create a much more complicated ballot paper for IRV Here's a sample of an Australian IRV voting form: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/48/20...

It's also misleading because the simplicity of the appearance ballot paper disguises the complexity of the actual choice of how many boxes to tick in front of you. (Am I better picking my favourite candidate only or both the candidates I don't find entirely unacceptable in a tight three way race?)

Re: Approval Voting versus Instant Runoff Voting

#47

If only we could use approval voting to vote for a new voting system. Free elections are not always fair.

People hate change.

A few of us have been sneaking approval voting in wherever it makes sense. Familiarize people with the process.

One example is we use approval voting for prioritorizing our motions during membership meetings. Previously, our endorsement process was a major food fight, was way too dependent on the order which motions (from the floor) were recognized (unfair, yielding results not representative of the membership) and took way too long.

Now, using approval voting to pre-rank the motions, everyone sees the process is open, fair, accountable.

Re: Approval Voting versus Instant Runoff Voting

#48
post #44

Article makes some good arguments for approval voting, but the "Ballot Spoilage" argument is a bit disingenuous. Ballots can't be spoiled in approval voting because any set of circles can be filled in. However it's a lot easier to corrupt a ballot undetected. Just fill in more bubbles for your candidate.

In their example voting form there is a list of candidate names with a bubble next to each. How can someone “fill in more bubbles for (their) candidate”?

I had the same question, but I think they meant that you can fill in the bubbles for your candidate of choice on other people's ballots without anybody being able to detect it, and without causing the ballot to be discarded.

Re: Approval Voting versus Instant Runoff Voting

#49

As a libertarian anything that increases the ability of a 3rd party go gain traction interest me but something smells very off about the recent uptick in discussion of alternatives. If these changes were actually beneficial to the underdog in the general case you'd see them being pushed by the left or the right on a state by state basis depending on the political make up of any given state. The parties aren't run by…

I advocate approval voting for executive positions, proportional representation for assemblies, and fair redistricting.

That combo will reform our duopoly. Plus other benefits, like improve campaign civility and reduce polarization.

(FWIW, I upvoted you for your end goal.)

Re: Approval Voting versus Instant Runoff Voting

#50

What the article misses is that there are alternatives better than BOTH approval or IRV. I will always find "Approval" to be unsatisfying because I want to say I like A more than I like B. I will always find IRV to be dumb because it has bad outcomes and for no additional cost or complexity those ranked ballots could have been counted by a Condorcet method that results in better democracy. https://bolson.org/irv/

"I want to say I like A more than I like B"

You can convey this by only submitting a single choice on your ballot (a powerful tactic in AV). Conversely, you can vote everyone BUT the one you wish to harm. And by default you can vote NOTA. While it may be that Approval Voting is not the "perfect" answer, it is far better than most and comes with the added benefit of easy adoption/implementation and simple explanation.

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