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Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 pilots 'could not stop nosedive'

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 pilots 'could not stop nosedive'

#211

Post by mr_overalls »

calcifer wrote: post #202
Yetanfou wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please stop looking for racism in each and every aspect of public discourse, it does way more harm than it has the potential to do good. The harm lies in the ever larger focus on things which have the potential to divide people, be they race or sex or gender or religion or any other section. In this case there may have been a suggestion of the pilots having undergone less rigorous training and the aircraft being main…

"I don't see colour, it's not about race" said the white Western European guy...

You impugn one type of bias while openly indulging in another. But this is acceptable in many circles today, so I suppose your comment will be upvoted.

Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 pilots 'could not stop nosedive'

#213

Post by Xixi »

peteradio wrote: post #154
VBprogrammer wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The official report will make for interesting reading. The speculation over the last few days is starting to fill in some questions I've had: - Why didn't the pilots identify the issue as MCAS malfunction and follow the guidence? They did and it didn't work for some reason. Possibly because of the air loads on the stabilizer. - Why did the AoA sensor on a new aircraft fail? Suspected bird strike.

Why is nobody looking at the manufacturer of the sensor?

Disclaimer: I'm not an aeronautical engineer, just a software "engineer".

But between harsh atmospheric conditions, bird strikes, hornets deciding to nest where they should not [1] and mundane human/maintenance errors, sensors can and do fail. I've been taught that reliability is not achieved by building bug-free systems on top of can-never-fail hardware. Quite the opposite actually: reliability is achieved by assuming that everything and anything can and will fail. I would recommend learning Erlang to understand what a system designed from the beginning for fault-tolerance and nine nine reliability looks like.

So to answer your question, nobody is looking at the manufacturer of the sensor because an AoA sensor failing should not cause a plane to crash.

[1] Although not the sensor at hand in these crashes, turns out hornet nesting in a pitot tube prevents it from functioning. And they can nest very fast, while your aircraft is just lying there waiting for the next trip...

Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 pilots 'could not stop nosedive'

#214

Post by fcbaker »

calcifer wrote: post #202
Yetanfou wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please stop looking for racism in each and every aspect of public discourse, it does way more harm than it has the potential to do good. The harm lies in the ever larger focus on things which have the potential to divide people, be they race or sex or gender or religion or any other section. In this case there may have been a suggestion of the pilots having undergone less rigorous training and the aircraft being main…

"I don't see colour, it's not about race" said the white Western European guy...

That is not what the comment said. The comment said "stop talking about race all the time", which is literally what Morgan Freeman (black) also said.

Coming back to Western European air safety biases: Russian airlines had a bad reputation for many decades in Western Europe. Racially, you cannot get more white/caucasian than Russians.

Introducing race without specific quotes is nonsense.

Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 pilots 'could not stop nosedive'

#215

Post by rocqua »

lorenzobr wrote: post #78
jpatokal wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Per the friendly article, "Pilots "repeatedly" followed procedures recommended by Boeing before the crash, according to the first official report into the disaster."

Exactly. I find it embarrassing for the society as whole how many people these days comment on articles or posts by just reading the title.

I read the article, hence my reaction. Because to me, the claims of the article do not match my understanding of the procedures defined for dealing with a failing MCAS.

Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 pilots 'could not stop nosedive'

#216

Post by rocqua »

Tsubasachan wrote: post #39
rocqua wrote: post #4

If this was indeed MCAS, it is my understanding they 'could have' stopped this by turning off power to the electronic stabilizer trim.

Ah yes ofcourse. Just hit pause to stop time, mute the people screaming in the rear, get a cup of coffee, sit back and think out of the box.

Not saying that we could've expected this of the pilots, just doubting the claim 'could not stop nosedive'. Specifically stating that the claim

"The crew performed all the procedures repeatedly [that were] provided by the manufacturer but were not able to control the aircraft."

Does not match MCAS as it has been explained to me.

Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 pilots 'could not stop nosedive'

#217

Post by chungleong »

WheelsAtLarge wrote: post #6

This is a software screwup. It's buggy software due to rush to market. I hope they do an analysis of the whole project. We can all learn from it.

Definitely a software QA issue. People are blaming the engines but we couldn't have known, a priori, that software is incapable of compensating for the change in balance. Process should have been in place preventing the delivery of an inadequate solution.

Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 pilots 'could not stop nosedive'

#218

Post by treis »

JshWright wrote: post #207
treis wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It was recoverable in a similar situation. That does not mean it was recoverable in both situations. Similarly, because it was unrecoverable in one situation [based solely on speculation at this point] doesn't mean it was unrecoverable in another. >Any incident like this is a chain of events (which in this case started back with the original design decisions). Many links in that chain aren't obvious, and no two chai…

The original comment you were replying to referenced Boeing's smear of the pilots, not Lion Air the company. The pilots would have no knowledge of the first two items on your list (the ones I did not address, as they weren't relevant to the comment you were replying to). You're absolutely correct that Lion Air might have had the opportunity to prevent Boeing's design failure from bringing down this plane (this time).…

>The original comment you were replying to referenced Boeing's smear of the pilots, not Lion Air the company.

I responded to:

>the Lion Air crash (they were busy smearing the airline an the pilots instead)

Which clearly references Lion Air the company.

>You're absolutely correct that Lion Air might have had the opportunity to prevent Boeing's design failure from bringing down this plane (this time). That still leaves the biggest share of the blame squarely in Boeing's lap.

Blame is not a competition and having a more at fault party doesn't excuse your failures. Lion Air failed badly and the pilots didn't take an obvious step to correct their issue. They merit the blame they are getting.

Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 pilots 'could not stop nosedive'

#219

Post by sseth »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #109
dagaci wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It actually seems to be normal practice to quickly allocate blame, even when its quite clear that little if any investigation has actually taken place. One of the effects of allocating blame is that large swathes of the general public will "switch off" and not ask questions of their politicians, who in turn apply little pressure to improve or advocate for improved standards (which big business and comfortable institu…

>It actually seems to be normal practice to quickly allocate blame, even when its quite clear that little if any investigation has actually taken place. Readers would do well to remember this also applies to all the people who were 100% sure it was MCAS related before the wreckage even stopped smoldering.

However since Boeing is a multi-billion dollar corporation perfectly capable of defending itself, I think it is best if HN readers focus on defending the dead pilots who unfortunately are not in the same position.

I am pretty sure any mistaken criticism of Boeing will be swiftly responded to and corrected at HN or elsewhere by Boeing's PR lackeys.

Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 pilots 'could not stop nosedive'

#220

Post by segmondy »

agmiller wrote: post #136
CaptainZapp wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally agree. Some of the sentiments expressed here was borderline racist. (badly trained, overworked cluelless third world pilots not even capable to follow a checklist). One of the worst smear jobs was actually by the New York Times accusing the captain of the Ethiopian plane not having trained in a 787-MAX simulator. Hello? Wasn't that the whole sales pitch that the plane requires no training at all for certified…

Pilot error is always assumed for pilots of all races. The French pilot who was allegedly responsible for crashing an Airbus during a flyover for an air show fought decades for clearing his name. He also claimed that the system had "artificial stupidity", that was the time when pilots first had the fun of encountering the many Airbus "flight laws".

I was just having this discussion with my team yesterday. Easier to blame the pilot when they are dead. I use to believe most NTSB reports and that most errors were pilot errors. Probably true, but probably not as high either.
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