Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 pilots 'could not stop nosedive' • Hacker News Board

Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 pilots 'could not stop nosedive'

#201

Post by treis » Thu, Apr 04, 2019, 1:42 PM UTC

JshWright wrote: post #197

treis wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>As we have now learned, switching to the manual control is useless when the aircraft is in this condition (high speed, stab down, elevator up). That wasn't the position the Lion Air flight was in. I don't think there is much debate that the Lion Air flight was recoverable since the pilots on the previous flight recovered from the same issue: >As the Lion Air crew fought to control their diving Boeing Co. 737 Max 8,…

It was recoverable in a similar situation. That does not mean it was recoverable in both situations. Any incident like this is a chain of events (which in this case started back with the original design decisions). Many links in that chain aren't obvious, and no two chains are identical. Just because the chain was broken in one case doesn't mean it was reasonable to expect it to be broken in all of them.

>It was recoverable in a similar situation. That does not mean it was recoverable in both situations.

Similarly, because it was unrecoverable in one situation [based solely on speculation at this point] doesn't mean it was unrecoverable in another.

>Any incident like this is a chain of events (which in this case started back with the original design decisions). Many links in that chain aren't obvious, and no two chains are identical. Just because the chain was broken in one case doesn't mean it was reasonable to expect it to be broken in all of them.

I'll note here that you have at best addressed one of my three points. To add color:

>Airline mechanics tried four times to fix related issues on the plane starting Oct. 26, according to the Indonesia preliminary report.

Do you think that's ok?

>However, the pilots on the harrowing Oct. 28 flight [the flight before the crash] from Bali to Jakarta didn’t mention key issues with the flight after they landed, according to the report.

Do you think that's ok?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-03-19/how-an-ex...

Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 pilots 'could not stop nosedive'

#202

Post by calcifer » Thu, Apr 04, 2019, 1:44 PM UTC

Yetanfou wrote: post #177

CaptainZapp wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally agree. Some of the sentiments expressed here was borderline racist. (badly trained, overworked cluelless third world pilots not even capable to follow a checklist). One of the worst smear jobs was actually by the New York Times accusing the captain of the Ethiopian plane not having trained in a 787-MAX simulator. Hello? Wasn't that the whole sales pitch that the plane requires no training at all for certified…

Please stop looking for racism in each and every aspect of public discourse, it does way more harm than it has the potential to do good. The harm lies in the ever larger focus on things which have the potential to divide people, be they race or sex or gender or religion or any other section. In this case there may have been a suggestion of the pilots having undergone less rigorous training and the aircraft being main…

"I don't see colour, it's not about race" said the white Western European guy...

Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 pilots 'could not stop nosedive'

#203

Post by Rooster61 » Thu, Apr 04, 2019, 1:44 PM UTC

treis wrote: post #183

CaptainZapp wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's pretty disgusting that you're still smearing the Lion Air Pilots despite all the facts that came to light after the Ethiopian crash. Namely that Boeing didn't even bother to document MCAS, let alone deem it necessary to provide training for purely commercial reasons. Turns out that their documented emergency procedure also isn't helpful once the plane becomes unstable due to their design fuck-up. Way to…

>I think it's pretty disgusting that you're still smearing the Lion Air Pilots despite all the facts that came to light after the Ethiopian crash. Thank you for your personal attack. Besides that, I'll just note that you didn't actually address any of my points.

He didn't attack you personally. He attacked your action, which was smearing the pilots (which is indeed disgusting).

Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 pilots 'could not stop nosedive'

#204

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Apr 04, 2019, 1:47 PM UTC

drsim wrote: post #18

matt4077 wrote: post #12

I’d love to see those people who accused the airline and crew of being incompetent to apologize in the light of these reports. It was shameful to see Boeing actively encouraging that narrative behind the scenes. Especially considering it plays on racist stereotypes equating „Africa“ with bad training/bad safety record/…. The idea of „dingy third world airline“ was ridiculous on its face, considering how bad a fit fly…

While I agree with your sentiment on stereotypes, looking at the link your comment seems misleading. The airlines you mention score lower on 'Safety Rating' due to lack of IOSA certification. "Registering for IOSA certification and auditing is not mandatory therefore an airline that does not have IOSA certification may have either failed the IOSA audit or alternatively chosen not to participate." For a budget airline…

[deleted]

Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 pilots 'could not stop nosedive'

#205

Post by duxup » Thu, Apr 04, 2019, 1:48 PM UTC

matt4077 wrote: post #12

I’d love to see those people who accused the airline and crew of being incompetent to apologize in the light of these reports. It was shameful to see Boeing actively encouraging that narrative behind the scenes. Especially considering it plays on racist stereotypes equating „Africa“ with bad training/bad safety record/…. The idea of „dingy third world airline“ was ridiculous on its face, considering how bad a fit fly…

I don't know about formal accusations and it is always dangerous to disagree with someone's view of "those people who"..... but speculation about pilot error has high rate of being generally accurate.

Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 pilots 'could not stop nosedive'

#206

Post by something40 » Thu, Apr 04, 2019, 1:50 PM UTC

CaptainZapp wrote: post #122

matt4077 wrote: post #12

I’d love to see those people who accused the airline and crew of being incompetent to apologize in the light of these reports. It was shameful to see Boeing actively encouraging that narrative behind the scenes. Especially considering it plays on racist stereotypes equating „Africa“ with bad training/bad safety record/…. The idea of „dingy third world airline“ was ridiculous on its face, considering how bad a fit fly…

Totally agree. Some of the sentiments expressed here was borderline racist. (badly trained, overworked cluelless third world pilots not even capable to follow a checklist). One of the worst smear jobs was actually by the New York Times accusing the captain of the Ethiopian plane not having trained in a 787-MAX simulator. Hello? Wasn't that the whole sales pitch that the plane requires no training at all for certified…

> One of the worst smear jobs was actually by the New York Times accusing the captain of the Ethiopian plane not having trained in a 787-MAX simulator.

One should remember that one of the primary purposes is not simply information, but also misinformation. This is normally done to protect the large sacred cow institutions that make up society.

Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 pilots 'could not stop nosedive'

#207

Post by JshWright » Thu, Apr 04, 2019, 1:54 PM UTC

treis wrote: post #201

JshWright wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was recoverable in a similar situation. That does not mean it was recoverable in both situations. Any incident like this is a chain of events (which in this case started back with the original design decisions). Many links in that chain aren't obvious, and no two chains are identical. Just because the chain was broken in one case doesn't mean it was reasonable to expect it to be broken in all of them.

>It was recoverable in a similar situation. That does not mean it was recoverable in both situations. Similarly, because it was unrecoverable in one situation [based solely on speculation at this point] doesn't mean it was unrecoverable in another. >Any incident like this is a chain of events (which in this case started back with the original design decisions). Many links in that chain aren't obvious, and no two chai…

The original comment you were replying to referenced Boeing's smear of the pilots, not Lion Air the company. The pilots would have no knowledge of the first two items on your list (the ones I did not address, as they weren't relevant to the comment you were replying to).

You're absolutely correct that Lion Air might have had the opportunity to prevent Boeing's design failure from bringing down this plane (this time). That still leaves the biggest share of the blame squarely in Boeing's lap.

Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 pilots 'could not stop nosedive'

#208

Post by delfinom » Thu, Apr 04, 2019, 1:54 PM UTC

peteradio wrote: post #166

kharms wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bad programming was not the sole or root cause but it was a cause, and people died. You can't punt on that unless you want software engineer to actually mean code monkey. The same way a building architect has to sign off on the design demands of a a client, a software engineer on safety-critical systems must evaluate the spec and consider the effects of edge cases.

What do you suppose the spec was here and how did the Engineer neglect to fulfill it? These specs are very compartmentalized, you think the Engineer is responsible for the big picture understanding and gets to take it up with the VP? No.

Yea, at a company like Boeing. They compartmentalize the fuck out of the engineering perhaps a bit too far.

Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 pilots 'could not stop nosedive'

#209

Post by matt4077 » Thu, Apr 04, 2019, 1:59 PM UTC

CaptainZapp wrote: post #164

matt4077 wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their report merely states that a simulator was available, and that the crew did not train it it. It even includes the fact that Boeing did not consider such training necessary. How is it untrustworthy to report these uncontested facts? You are drawing a conclusion that the article does not make, namely that the lack of simulator use was the singular cause of the accident. It takes some gall to accuse the Times of a…

My bad. It was me drawing the conclusion. And granted: That was mainly from the headlines, which were also picked up by other publications. I would remove my comment, but that kills the flow of the thread so I let it stand and apologise for my making the unfounded comment. I was under the impression (probably not unreasonable if you look at Boeing's reaction in the last few weeks) that the company was actively smeari…

Thanks for having the grace of changing your mind.

And you weren’t entirely incorrect: my assertion in the top post in is thread that Boeing was working on blaming the pilots was based on something I remember reading in either the NYT or Atlantic. But that article was very explicitly saying that it was narrative being pushed by Boeing.

Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 pilots 'could not stop nosedive'

#210

Post by draw_down » Thu, Apr 04, 2019, 2:04 PM UTC

After the second crash of this plane model within 6 months, the call to ground the 737 Max until we understand why the crashes happened was labeled an overreaction. As if safety should not be the first priority, as if abundance of caution is a bad thing. It was very interesting to watch this happen; I thought, why wouldn’t you want to be cautious?

My take on it is there’s a “boy who cried wolf” effect where everything gets branded as over-the-top, unnecessary outrage, etc, that our judgement has been affected. Our ability to recognize and respond to truly exceptional circumstances is diminished. It’s so easy now to paint people as being hysterical or whatever, but sometimes cool calm and collected is actually not the correct stance.