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Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Shows Recipients Are Happier and More Secure

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Re: Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Shows Recipients Are Happier and More Secure

#71

Post by whatshisface »

Jedi72 wrote: post #43
mises wrote: post #31

If you give people everything, they just won't work as hard. At least, I don't think they will over the long term. It's like retirement: some may learn a skill, volunteer, etc., but most just watch TV and wait to die. This is hard for many of us to realize, because we spend much of our free time tinkering with and leaning technologies. I hear a lot of people saying that society is bound to provide all the needs of a…

A huge amount of effort in society is wasted in pointless competition simply because people need income. Imagine 2 farmers selling melons, each with 50% market share. One discovers if she hires a social media marketer she can get to 70% market share. The other farmer now must respond by hiring their own marketing people. These two marketers are both very happy to be employed, but overall we would have been better jus…

The farmers would still try to hire the markerters even with a UBI, unless you're proposing that the UBI will eliminate the profit motive. It probably won't unless it's so large that it destroys the economy and replaces it with communism.

Re: Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Shows Recipients Are Happier and More Secure

#72

Post by throw0101a »

It would also been useful to see results of the one in Ontario, Canada, but the Conservative government that was elected last year cancelled it before it had run its course (after promising to let it finish during the campaign).

* https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/basic-income-ontario-... * https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/hugh-segal-basic-incom...

Re: Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Shows Recipients Are Happier and More Secure

#73

Post by iagovar »

Jhsto wrote: post #60
spaceribs wrote: post #11

Is it a legitimate argument that smart hardworking people who are considered economically valuable will be swayed to non-economically valuable interests within this system? As a former fine arts student that became a UI developer mostly for the monetary stability, I do feel like if I had the ability to fully invest myself creating art without constantly struggling with relevancy and rent, I would have been far more q…

Yes, but currently you must be unemployed to get most aids. These aids may be as much as your monthly pay at work. If you end up unemployed, it makes sense to stay so for a while. With basic income it would get continuous and unconditional, albeit less in amount. Finland has quite complex welfare system and basic income would make it simpler and avoid people gaming the system to optimize aids instead of focusing on g…

And it's way simpler to manage = Less public employees needed.

Re: Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Shows Recipients Are Happier and More Secure

#74

Post by mises »

keymone wrote: post #50
spaceribs wrote: post #11

Is it a legitimate argument that smart hardworking people who are considered economically valuable will be swayed to non-economically valuable interests within this system? As a former fine arts student that became a UI developer mostly for the monetary stability, I do feel like if I had the ability to fully invest myself creating art without constantly struggling with relevancy and rent, I would have been far more q…

there's a difference between "non-economically viable" and "not useful". i have no problems with people losing interest in doing stuff that current market values because current market values turning people into zombies that occasionally are happy to go murder each other. art, volunteering, social programs and plenty other activities are way more useful for civilization as a whole than almost any random job on the ma…

> they don't need to do unimportant stuff just to put bread on a table

I think at first they will, but I think over time they will realize they don't have to do anything at all. People work because they want something, or at least I always have.

Re: Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Shows Recipients Are Happier and More Secure

#75

Post by whatshisface »

spamizbad wrote: post #64
mises wrote: post #31

If you give people everything, they just won't work as hard. At least, I don't think they will over the long term. It's like retirement: some may learn a skill, volunteer, etc., but most just watch TV and wait to die. This is hard for many of us to realize, because we spend much of our free time tinkering with and leaning technologies. I hear a lot of people saying that society is bound to provide all the needs of a…

Is basic income having “everything”? If that’s the case, why isn’t there more downward pressure on wages? Because if $635 is all it takes, we are drastically overpaying everyone! A (very) modest ammount of health, housing, and food security is more like a foundation for an individual, rather than the entirety of their existence.

If the minimum wage was abolished, low-end labor might actually sink to being paid that little.

Re: Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Shows Recipients Are Happier and More Secure

#76

Post by lr4444lr »

spaceribs wrote: post #11

Is it a legitimate argument that smart hardworking people who are considered economically valuable will be swayed to non-economically valuable interests within this system? As a former fine arts student that became a UI developer mostly for the monetary stability, I do feel like if I had the ability to fully invest myself creating art without constantly struggling with relevancy and rent, I would have been far more q…

You may have thought you'd be more "qualitatively" useful, but the wasn't the prevailing wage for creating art, that you found insufficient, at all reflective of general society telling you that it wasn't more "qualitatively" useful?

Re: Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Shows Recipients Are Happier and More Secure

#77

Post by kvczor »

futurenanigans wrote: post #56
kvczor wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't the fact that you earn more by doing UI work prove that you are far more useful to society than by making art?

Are you measuring a persons worth based on their income?

OP wrote: "I would have been far more qualitatively useful to society at large." There are far more people that need UI work (in the form of websites, apps, etc) these days than art. UI work scales very well, art not really - you can affect way more people and that is reflected in the salary.

"Qualitatively" UI work is far more useful to society.

Re: Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Shows Recipients Are Happier and More Secure

#78

Post by dragosbulugean »

no government will be able to give people basic needs except at the cost of other people. I believe this will eventually happen, but through technology, not through these 'Robin Hood' type politicians. if you look thoughout history it wasn't any societal rules or enforcements that advanced us, but application of scientifical discoveries to build products that help make human life easier

Re: Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Shows Recipients Are Happier and More Secure

#79

Post by dageshi »

spaceribs wrote: post #11

Is it a legitimate argument that smart hardworking people who are considered economically valuable will be swayed to non-economically valuable interests within this system? As a former fine arts student that became a UI developer mostly for the monetary stability, I do feel like if I had the ability to fully invest myself creating art without constantly struggling with relevancy and rent, I would have been far more q…

UBI might solve rent, would it solve "relevancy"? There are genres of art where the means of production became so easy/cheap that the world is flooded with them, I recall reading a blog from some years ago discussing how EDM music had become so cheap and easy to produce that the market was flooded with content which fewer and fewer people would actually pay for.

UBI might give people the opportunity to explore their interests but ultimately wouldn't you end up in the same place? Torn between a desire to make "art" which suddenly everyone else is also trying to make and follow their passion, or get paid substantially more for UI Development?

Re: Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Shows Recipients Are Happier and More Secure

#80

Post by mises »

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #69
mises wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is whole I'd like to think they would, I think people will gradually get lazier as they get used to it. Most people do the minimum required now; what makes everyone think they will keep that same level of productivity arbitrarily when it's not the minimum liveable?

I'd suggest looking at retirement- one of the important facets of retirement is the encouragement to continue contributing to society once retired because it is always necessary to be productive in some way or form for the human condition as we understand it. It is psychologically damaging to not be constantly doing stuff that is at least mildly fulfilling in some way. If a sizeable portion or even a majority of peop…

How do you propose to do this? We have a lot of trouble doing it with old people already.
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