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Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Shows Recipients Are Happier and More Secure

bloomberg.com

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Re: Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Shows Recipients Are Happier and More Secure

#21

Post by sacheendra »

m52go wrote: post #7

Why can't UBI be attempted on a local scale first? We have state and local governments for a reason. Something as risky and expensive as UBI, if it is going to be implemented, should be implemented gradually with proper testing, feedback, and adaptation.

Unless local governments have the ability to levy significant taxes, the experiment would be unrealistic. The impact of UBI needs to be studied at the societal level, not just the individual level. Who pays the higher taxes, which jobs would find no takers, where would wages need to increase to compensate, etc.

Most countries which are not the Unites States don't have the power to make large scale systematic changes that this requires. It might not be possible even in the US, what with states shipping homeless people to other states and all.

Re: Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Shows Recipients Are Happier and More Secure

#22

Post by michelledepeil »

klaudius wrote: post #3

Why not just look at people who don't work but receive income - young people, retirees, wealthy people etc. to see what behavior under UBI looks like?

except they are not representative of an entire society - specifically they are only representative (usually) of a subgroup of society that _cannot_ work.

Re: Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Shows Recipients Are Happier and More Secure

#23

Post by RickJWagner »

m52go wrote: post #7

Why can't UBI be attempted on a local scale first? We have state and local governments for a reason. Something as risky and expensive as UBI, if it is going to be implemented, should be implemented gradually with proper testing, feedback, and adaptation.

Perfect response.

Re: Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Shows Recipients Are Happier and More Secure

#24

Post by mdp553 »

raaaaraaaa122 wrote: post #2

Basic income means that people who are willing to work will pay probably higher taxes. I believe that will be easier for some people who do not earn much to just stay home with basic income. Then less people will be economically active (who will do low wage jobs ?) and taxes will need to go higher etc... It's economical spiral of death for whole nation.

Which is why this was trialed on a small subset first to evaluate hypotheses such as what you suggest. According to the article, those receiving UBI were not economically less active than controls who were not receiving it (i.e. they had similar probability of being employed).

Re: Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Shows Recipients Are Happier and More Secure

#25

Post by kvczor »

spaceribs wrote: post #11

Is it a legitimate argument that smart hardworking people who are considered economically valuable will be swayed to non-economically valuable interests within this system? As a former fine arts student that became a UI developer mostly for the monetary stability, I do feel like if I had the ability to fully invest myself creating art without constantly struggling with relevancy and rent, I would have been far more q…

Doesn't the fact that you earn more by doing UI work prove that you are far more useful to society than by making art?

Re: Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Shows Recipients Are Happier and More Secure

#26

Post by [deleted] »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #6
raaaaraaaa122 wrote: post #2

Basic income means that people who are willing to work will pay probably higher taxes. I believe that will be easier for some people who do not earn much to just stay home with basic income. Then less people will be economically active (who will do low wage jobs ?) and taxes will need to go higher etc... It's economical spiral of death for whole nation.

The goal is to provide a sustainable and desirable quality of life for all, and economic activity is one or part of a way to achieve it. I don’t think people will just stop wanting to go out to restaurants, or skiing, or whatever other activities they want to do. And if they want to do them, they will have to work. And especially to attract a quality mate.

[deleted]

Re: Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Shows Recipients Are Happier and More Secure

#27

Post by keymone »

chrisseaton wrote: post #8

What person wouldn't be happier and more secure with more money?

the argument goes that if people get free money they lose motivation to work and spend all their time on a sofa killing time, which isn't healthy physiologically and mentally.

it's quite idiotic argument, but i've personally met people who discard the whole idea of UBI based on it alone.

Re: Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Shows Recipients Are Happier and More Secure

#28

Post by fsloth »

shireboy wrote: post #19

I’m sorry, but “getting free money makes people happy” isn’t exactly a shocking result is it? The result that the employment level was consistent is mildly interesting, though I’d expect the numbers could be different with a longer or larger test. But the real question imo is “does this scale without destroying the country’s finances?”

"I’m sorry, but “getting free money makes people happy” isn’t exactly a shocking result is it?"

Well, in the context of the experiment the people would have been able to garner state support through a bit more complex social security / social services schemes so it's not entirely about that they have more resources available, but also how they were given those resources and how many needless strings were attached to those.

I agree on principle to your point, but it's not as blatant as if the people had been living in abject poverty and then given money beyond their current financial means.

Re: Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Shows Recipients Are Happier and More Secure

#30

Post by chrisseaton »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #6
raaaaraaaa122 wrote: post #2

Basic income means that people who are willing to work will pay probably higher taxes. I believe that will be easier for some people who do not earn much to just stay home with basic income. Then less people will be economically active (who will do low wage jobs ?) and taxes will need to go higher etc... It's economical spiral of death for whole nation.

The goal is to provide a sustainable and desirable quality of life for all, and economic activity is one or part of a way to achieve it. I don’t think people will just stop wanting to go out to restaurants, or skiing, or whatever other activities they want to do. And if they want to do them, they will have to work. And especially to attract a quality mate.

> And if they want to do them, they will have to work.

I thought that was the argument _against_ UBI?

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