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Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 pilots 'could not stop nosedive'

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 pilots 'could not stop nosedive'

#111

Post by vfinn »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #103
fulafel wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe solid forms could be explosively or electrically welded off.

No. This speculation is just pointless. It's simply not a solution given the engineering practicalities and cost constraints. It's also not a good way to solve what is essentially a software problem. Well-designed planes are ridiculously safe compared to almost any other mode of transport. And it's completely possible to design planes that handle all but the most extreme and unlikely edge cases. The problem here isn'…

I don't think speculating about the possibility of an emergency solution or escape route that is outside the reach of errors made in software/hardware/you name it is pointless. Speculating about this particular idea could be, if the idea doesn't expand to other directions. Saying that problems should be solved only within their respective domains, I don't agree with.

Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 pilots 'could not stop nosedive'

#112

Post by leroy_masochist »

skrebbel wrote: post #91
jakecopp wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hard engineering problem - where do you open up the fuselage to get the people out? It's a tube so you can't weaken it. You also can't open a hole at the back and let them slide out backwards, you'd need a cylindrical tube in a tube which can then slide out. That's a HUGE amount of extra weight and complexity. Planes are so so much safer than cars. Before we parachute people out of passenger planes we should be eject…

> Before we parachute people out of passenger planes we should be ejecting people out of the roofs of cars if an imminent collision is detected :) I'd be "accidentally" driving into a lot of trees if cars had that. Sounds like major fun!

Have fun! Me personally, I'm going to pass on the concussion and 1/2 inch of permanent spinal compression that comes with pulling 20 G's

Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 pilots 'could not stop nosedive'

#113

Post by wycy »

FactolSarin wrote: post #45
golergka wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It was shameful to see Boeing actively encouraging that narrative behind the scenes. Is it shameful because we suspect that it was an intentional lie on their behalf, or is it shameful even if it was honest opinion of these Boeing representatives at the time?

Either. Deeply seated racist beliefs are often honestly held, but that doesn't make them less shameful.

I think in this case it probably wasn't meant to be racism on Boeing's part--Boeing just has a history of immediately blaming the pilots for every crash.

Latent racism may have helped some people believe it was the pilots' fault, but I wouldn't ascribe the actual racism part to Boeing in this case.

Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 pilots 'could not stop nosedive'

#115

Post by dingaling »

Tor3 wrote: post #62
WheelsAtLarge wrote: post #6

This is a software screwup. It's buggy software due to rush to market. I hope they do an analysis of the whole project. We can all learn from it.

It's worse than that. When they refitted the 737 with newer, larger engines to create the 737 Max there wasn't enough room, so they were shifted forwards (look at the pictures - the engines are almost in front of the wings). This created a setup where the thrust could make the plane pitch up in certain cituations - the system isn't in balance anymore. Thus the sensor to detect pitch-up and the software to try to comp…

> This created a setup where the trust could make the plane pitch up

No, not related to thrust. All underwing-engined airliners pitch with thrust. I wish we could stamp out this falsehoid.

The nacelles added aerodynamic effects at high AoA.

Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 pilots 'could not stop nosedive'

#116

Post by taneq »

bobcostas55 wrote: post #15
WheelsAtLarge wrote: post #6

This is a software screwup. It's buggy software due to rush to market. I hope they do an analysis of the whole project. We can all learn from it.

The software did what it was supposed to, the issue was the specification necessitated by the design change.

This sort of buck passing is what kills people. The software may have performed according to its specification but it didn't do what it was supposed to, or it wouldn't have crashed the plane. Now sure, we could identify where things went awry in the chain of steps from "make the plane fly right" to a detailed functional spec, but when it comes down to it, the software was meant to "make the plane fly right" and it did not.

Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 pilots 'could not stop nosedive'

#117

Post by dingaling »

raverbashing wrote: post #36
aschwabe wrote: post #33

Has anyone checked if there is MCAS on the 787?

No there isn't

But there is on the KC-46 tanker for the USAF, but unlike the MAX it cuts-out upon pilot control input:

http://www.airforcemag.com/Features/Pages/2019/March%202019/...

Again it derives from trying to push an older non-FBW design to new limits; a 767 wasn't designed for the large shifts in CoG which occur when offloading fuel in flight. A FBW type like the A330 that was its rival for the USAF contract can just subtly command constant minir trim changes.

Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 pilots 'could not stop nosedive'

#118

Post by megablast »

dagaci wrote: post #86
matt4077 wrote: post #12

I’d love to see those people who accused the airline and crew of being incompetent to apologize in the light of these reports. It was shameful to see Boeing actively encouraging that narrative behind the scenes. Especially considering it plays on racist stereotypes equating „Africa“ with bad training/bad safety record/…. The idea of „dingy third world airline“ was ridiculous on its face, considering how bad a fit fly…

It actually seems to be normal practice to quickly allocate blame, even when its quite clear that little if any investigation has actually taken place. One of the effects of allocating blame is that large swathes of the general public will "switch off" and not ask questions of their politicians, who in turn apply little pressure to improve or advocate for improved standards (which big business and comfortable institu…

It is called controlling the narrative.

Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 pilots 'could not stop nosedive'

#119

Post by jussij »

golergka wrote: post #38
matt4077 wrote: post #12

I’d love to see those people who accused the airline and crew of being incompetent to apologize in the light of these reports. It was shameful to see Boeing actively encouraging that narrative behind the scenes. Especially considering it plays on racist stereotypes equating „Africa“ with bad training/bad safety record/…. The idea of „dingy third world airline“ was ridiculous on its face, considering how bad a fit fly…

> It was shameful to see Boeing actively encouraging that narrative behind the scenes. Is it shameful because we suspect that it was an intentional lie on their behalf, or is it shameful even if it was honest opinion of these Boeing representatives at the time?

> Is it shameful because we suspect that it was an intentional lie on their behalf

Exactly this.

> or is it shameful even if it was honest opinion of these Boeing representatives at the time?

It seems fairly obvious Boeing was aware the 737-MAX had some serious faults, but instead of admitting those faults it seems fairly obvious they went out of their way to deflect blame way from their failed aircraft onto the now dead pilots.

Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 pilots 'could not stop nosedive'

#120

Post by treis »

jpatokal wrote: post #5
rocqua wrote: post #4

If this was indeed MCAS, it is my understanding they 'could have' stopped this by turning off power to the electronic stabilizer trim.

Per the friendly article, "Pilots "repeatedly" followed procedures recommended by Boeing before the crash, according to the first official report into the disaster."

I'm interested to see what the report says about this. My understanding is that the procedure is "turn off electric trim and don't turn it back on". Not a procedure that you can follow "repeatedly".
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