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Judge orders police to stop collecting data from license plate readers

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Judge orders police to stop collecting data from license plate readers

#41

Post by [deleted] »

DennisP wrote: post #25
sjwright wrote: post #2

We want to protect innocent people from snooping and harassment, but we also want law enforcement to have useful resources. These shouldn’t be mutually exclusive requirements. It always baffles me that nobody thinks to set up a best-of-both-worlds system whereby all the data is gathered, but stored in a secure database under the control of an independent government entity, possibly the courts themselves. If you’re tr…

Somehow, law enforcement once managed to do its job reasonably well even in the absence of pervasive surveillance.

[deleted]

Re: Judge orders police to stop collecting data from license plate readers

#42

Post by drb91 »

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #40
drb91 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but it's also perfectly understandable why police aren't super fond of it. Only in the sense that people aren't super fond of doing their job right.

So you would have no issue if your boss stood over your shoulder every hour of the day, evaluating how you spend your time?

I'm not a cop and my job is not to be violent on behalf of the state.

Additionally, monitoring can also be exonerating if you are confident in the justice system, so I don't buy this idea that cops are uniformly against monitoring.

Re: Judge orders police to stop collecting data from license plate readers

#43

Post by ocdtrekkie »

drb91 wrote: post #42
ocdtrekkie wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you would have no issue if your boss stood over your shoulder every hour of the day, evaluating how you spend your time?

I'm not a cop and my job is not to be violent on behalf of the state. Additionally, monitoring can also be exonerating if you are confident in the justice system, so I don't buy this idea that cops are uniformly against monitoring.

I already acknowledged that public interest in accountability above. To which you suggested anyone who didn't want to be monitored "aren't super fond of doing their job right".

My point is that police officers, like you, find having someone staring over their shoulder while they work uncomfortable. So the fact that they don't like it and tend to oppose it doesn't mean they're inherently desiring to be corrupt or violent or bad cops.

And yes, it's definitely true that police are regularly accused of lying, and can find appealing having recorded proof of their interactions. There's a lot of extra rules and regs around body cams and when they have to be recorded, and how they can be used by the department that can make the issue cloudier.

Re: Judge orders police to stop collecting data from license plate readers

#44

Post by [deleted] »

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #43
drb91 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a cop and my job is not to be violent on behalf of the state. Additionally, monitoring can also be exonerating if you are confident in the justice system, so I don't buy this idea that cops are uniformly against monitoring.

I already acknowledged that public interest in accountability above. To which you suggested anyone who didn't want to be monitored "aren't super fond of doing their job right". My point is that police officers, like you, find having someone staring over their shoulder while they work uncomfortable. So the fact that they don't like it and tend to oppose it doesn't mean they're inherently desiring to be corrupt or viol…

[deleted]

Re: Judge orders police to stop collecting data from license plate readers

#45

Post by threatofrain »

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #15
sixothree wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Police prefer to work in a world that lacks transparency and accountability (it seems).

As with most other employees, police officers are not super fond of having every single action they take while on the job recorded, monitored, and scrutinized. I've heard horror stories about tech industry people who worked at offices where their bosses used remote desktop software to monitor employees work, and I think everyone mostly universally agrees that's horrible. There's a perfectly legitimate argument that a…

A lot of people who work in sensitive situations understand the need and welcome automated documentation, especially in a world where reputation is everything. Not everyone has to work in the same circumstance, and I think that's okay. I would argue that some work is inherently benefited by transparency, such as when people have power over you and nobody can really see.

I feel that in many ways the police handle a range of responsibilities more serious to citizen health than handling some level of classified government information.

Re: Judge orders police to stop collecting data from license plate readers

#46

Post by Shivetya »

ams6110 wrote: post #5
sjwright wrote: post #2

We want to protect innocent people from snooping and harassment, but we also want law enforcement to have useful resources. These shouldn’t be mutually exclusive requirements. It always baffles me that nobody thinks to set up a best-of-both-worlds system whereby all the data is gathered, but stored in a secure database under the control of an independent government entity, possibly the courts themselves. If you’re tr…

Don't see how that's a lot better. As long as the database exists, it has potential for abuse later. No reason to think the courts are more ethical than the police.

retention rules, access rules, and verification of both, are what secure us from abuse. violations should be defined as criminal violation subject to prosecution.

except that where we have this three strikes for civilian criminal activities we should have a one strike and your out for public officials

Re: Judge orders police to stop collecting data from license plate readers

#47

Post by forgottenpass »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #32

What a pleasant surprise this ruling is. The DC area (of which Fairfax county is part) is probably one of the most government tracking heavy regions of the US. This is a curve-ball on par with the CA judge that overturned the mag ban recently. I would never have predicted this ruling. >Nine states have passed laws limiting how long the police can maintain the data, ranging from three minutes (New Hampshire) Now that…

> If any state is going to proactively curb law enforcement's capability to build a dragnet it's gonna be NH.

License plate collection used to be outright prohibited there (with toll both exception) before they caved on Real ID.

Re: Judge orders police to stop collecting data from license plate readers

#48

Post by chris_mc »

jermaustin1 wrote: post #35

I work in this space, building the tools to help LEAs seach their databases. I also have conflicting feelings about how this could be used. We built in access control down to the specific camera, auditing of every user action, requiring the reason you are performing an action, and mandating the user associate an open case in the same access group as the camera you are querying in order to view the data. Its pretty lo…

Yes, until the government passes new laws which reduce those protections and allow the use of this data for other things. It's really great you built in decent protections, but that doesn't mean they'll always be in place. Us techies seem to think technology exists in a static environment, but it doesn't.

Always ask yourself before working on stuff, if the USA were to turn to fascism tomorrow, would your work be helping us fight it or helping it subjugate us?

Re: Judge orders police to stop collecting data from license plate readers

#49

Post by DennisP »

P_I_Staker wrote: post #34
DennisP wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somehow, law enforcement once managed to do its job reasonably well even in the absence of pervasive surveillance.

That's debatable. Try going to law enforcement with anything non-trivial, and see how that goes. People routinely get murdered by someone that's a known and reported threat to them personally. You might be shocked what the police are unable or unwilling to go after someone for. Things like aggravated assault, stalking, and breaking / entering. If you have a known address and whereabouts for someone, and you've checke…

By "reasonably well" I don't mean "solves every crime." I mean well enough to keep society running smoothly, with affordable property insurance and the average person having low risk of violent injury or death.

Re: Judge orders police to stop collecting data from license plate readers

#50

Post by Broken_Hippo »

umvi wrote: post #18
ams6110 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't see how that's a lot better. As long as the database exists, it has potential for abuse later. No reason to think the courts are more ethical than the police.

Either way, abuses will happen. Would you rather be abused by the government or by random strangers?

In general, a random stranger - or even someone I knew from school, folks working for the parks department, and so on have little or no power over me.

The police or other law enforcement, however? These are folks that not only can abuse the power, but use it to factually or falsely accuse me of a crime. That's enough to ruin a life. You don't even need to be convicted for it to cause serious life issues, sometimes for years. These are the very people that I should be able to turn to when someone abuses it, and I am under the impression they would cover up their own abuses ... much like they do now.

The same really goes for politicians, but the scenario is different.

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