Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airport by border cops • Hacker News Board

Re: Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airport by border cops

#171

Post by Zak » Wed, Apr 03, 2019, 4:07 PM UTC

everdrive wrote: post #123

maximilianroos wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They can hold your stuff indefinitely, so be prepared to lose it if you go this route CBP do need reasonable suspicion to hold you belongings or do a forensic search of your computer (Cotterman 2013) - they can't just randomly take things on a whim. The longer they hold it, the higher standard required.

I strongly suspect that CBP's "strong suspicion" is equivalent to a HN poster's "whim." I'm not insulting either party, however when anything similar to this debate plays out, parties talk past each other on this sort of disagreement.

"Reasonable suspicion" is a legal term. In this context, a CBP officer would need to have evidence that would lead a reasonable person to believe the item to be searched is illegal to bring into the country, or contains something that is illegal to bring into the country. A hunch is not sufficient; it requires objective evidence.

Reasonable suspicion is not required for every search at a border crossing, and the Federal circuit courts are split on whether it is required for a forensic examination of a mobile phone at a border crossing. The 9th circuit has jurisdiction in this case, and has ruled that it is required.

Re: Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airport by border cops

#172

Post by mav3rick » Wed, Apr 03, 2019, 4:07 PM UTC

geofft wrote: post #134

DigiMortal wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We lead the world in R&D, we aren't in a surveillance state like China (~1.3B people), we aren't undeveloped, we have the US dollar - the commanding world currency. We develop the best military technology, space technology, most all technology. We issue the most patents, by far. We (as people) have more rights than most all other nations and we led many other rights to attain rights for their own citizens. We protect…

> We develop the best military technology Then why didn't you win in Vietnam? > We issue the most patents, by far. The US decides what is patentable, so that's basically a participation trophy. > We (as people) have more rights than most all other nations How have you enumerated this? > We protect Europe and the West. By handing half of Germany over to Stalin?

Winning wars is also about strategy not just technology.

Also, Russia was an ally in WW2, it demanded reparations.

These two are unrelated and historical facts.

Re: Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airport by border cops

#173

Post by ihattendorf » Wed, Apr 03, 2019, 4:08 PM UTC

saiya-jin wrote: post #62

a012 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or simply just leave yours at home, buy a burner phone on arrival.

For business? Yes if I have to, but thank god I don't. For leisure? I mean, seriously, who would shell their own free time and money and risk being treated like this? You get 1000x better treatment in Iran as a visitor for example. In fact, any country not currently in some sort of civil war is a better idea for a visit than US.

> You get 1000x better treatment in Iran as a visitor for example.

Sure, as long as you aren't LGBTQ or a woman.

Re: Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airport by border cops

#174

Post by chvid » Wed, Apr 03, 2019, 4:08 PM UTC

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #142

chvid wrote: post #117

This assumes that he was not picked by random but instead there is some sort of list of people to check at airports that you can be put on because of your work within IT-security. That would be a big story if that is the case. I will offer a counter-narrative which is more in line with my own experience (from other places than the US): The people who work at border control in particular in airports are bored. They ar…

They're likely not stupid enough to have a "list". They have a set of factors and probably tally up some sort of score and search everyone above X. It just so happens that anyone they wanted to put on the list will score X or above. Doing IT security probably gets you a pretty high score just by itself. Add in the fact that he was originally from Eastern Europe and there you are. I will definitely agree bored cops lo…

I don't disagree with you. I just don't think they have detailed information on your profession to the extend that they distinguish a software engineer from a software engineer doing security work.

I think it is obvious that they profile on overall looks, race, citizen status, place of birth, travel patterns.

Re: Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airport by border cops

#175

Post by jrace » Wed, Apr 03, 2019, 4:08 PM UTC

arethuza wrote: post #4

mcv wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keep data off your devices during travel, and download it once you're safe. If corporate, require external activation by someone from the company before the contents of your device are restored. That way you cannot be forced to divulge any company trade secrets, because you simply don't have access to them while you're crossing the border.

So what if you are asked if your device is in its normal state or whether you deleted any data from your device before travelling? Lying in that situation would seem like a very bad idea (I'm not a US national) - I've had a few uncomfortable experiences over the years entering the US and I certainly wouldn't want to do anything that would give cause to escalate things on their side.

I would hope that admitting to deleting data is not admitting to a crime. I delete data all the time (old emails, texts, pictures, etc...)

Re: Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airport by border cops

#176

Post by everdrive » Wed, Apr 03, 2019, 4:08 PM UTC

maximilianroos wrote: post #160

everdrive wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I strongly suspect that CBP's "strong suspicion" is equivalent to a HN poster's "whim." I'm not insulting either party, however when anything similar to this debate plays out, parties talk past each other on this sort of disagreement.

Reasonable suspicion is a legal standard that requires articulable facts, not a whim. Courts regularly hold that officers didn't obtain it. For more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_suspicion

I agree -- and apologies, I might not have made my point very well.

A different way to phrase it might be: The officers and the suspects disagree about what a reasonable suspicion might entail. Given the incentives, I don't think this is surprising.

I'll admit, my point in no way addresses yours -- how often are officers adhering the the specific legal standard?

Re: Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airport by border cops

#177

Post by skoskie » Wed, Apr 03, 2019, 4:10 PM UTC

vageli wrote: post #140

_8j7i wrote: post #75

"...he clammed up, taking the Fifth, and citing constitutional rights against unwarranted searches. ...border agents told him he had no constitutional nor any legal protections, and threatened him with criminal charges should he not concede to the search. ...he was eventually allowed to leave with his belongings, the devices still locked, and no charges were pressed." My goodness! I guess those protections did exit a…

Border agents may lie about your rights? Is there no Miranda equivalent for this type of detainment?

He was detained, not arrested. Miranda was unnecessary in this case.

Re: Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airport by border cops

#178

Post by geofft » Wed, Apr 03, 2019, 4:11 PM UTC

mav3rick wrote: post #172

geofft wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We develop the best military technology Then why didn't you win in Vietnam? > We issue the most patents, by far. The US decides what is patentable, so that's basically a participation trophy. > We (as people) have more rights than most all other nations How have you enumerated this? > We protect Europe and the West. By handing half of Germany over to Stalin?

Winning wars is also about strategy not just technology. Also, Russia was an ally in WW2, it demanded reparations. These two are unrelated and historical facts.

Good points. Military technology isn't that important, therefore the US continues to be the best country because it has the best military technology. Also, it's okay that the US didn't defend Europe from Communism because it was allied with the Communists.

Re: Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airport by border cops

#179

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Apr 03, 2019, 4:11 PM UTC

mikeash wrote: post #14

Quick reminder: US citizens have an absolute right to reenter the country. Customs can temporarily detain you, but they cannot refuse entry. Any threat, whether implied or stated, that they will hold you until you unlock your device is not real. They can hold your stuff indefinitely, so be prepared to lose it if you go this route, but never unlock your device based on the idea that it’s the only way to go free. Non-c…

[deleted]

Re: Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airport by border cops

#180

Post by jobigoud » Wed, Apr 03, 2019, 4:12 PM UTC

leesalminen wrote: post #167

musha68k wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quick reminder: Non US citizens only go to conferences outside the US. There is no excuse we should put up with this. Canada and EU are much better locations for this reason alone.

In the past several years, I’ve entered 6 countries as a US citizen. Only Canada has demanded access to my phone.

Another anecdotal point, in the past few years I've entered the US a dozen times, China, SA, Australia, Canada and some European countries outside my native France, and I've never been asked to unlock my phone once. I always get the fingerprint treatment at LAX though.