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The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets (2015)

theintercept.com

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Re: The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets (2015)

#81

Post by opportune »

friedman23 wrote: post #62
yongjik wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO > COINTELPRO (1956–1971) was a series of covert, and at times illegal,[1][2] projects conducted by the United States Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) aimed at surveilling, infiltrating, discrediting, and disrupting domestic political organizations. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FBI%E2%80%93King_suicide_lette... > The letter does not specify precisely what action it is urg…

How about in the last 50 years

You wouldn't hear about the most recent campaigns because they wouldn't be declassified yet.

Re: The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets (2015)

#82

Post by turc1656 »

yorwba wrote: post #12
whatshisface wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> WTF do you think they do all day? One would hope that they were trying to gain access to someone else's devices, as opposed to turning the guns towards their own citizens and economy. If a soldier showed up at my door and pointed their gun at me, my reaction wouldn't be "of course you're doing that, your job is to point guns."

> One would hope that they were trying to gain access to someone else's devices, as opposed to turning the guns towards their own citizens and economy. Apple devices are sold all over the world, so there's no way of gaining access to the enemy's devices without that method also being applicable to everyone else. Actually using them on everyone else is a different matter.

"...no way of gaining access to the enemy's devices without that method also being applicable to everyone else."

That's only true of some methods like using exploits and other vulnerabilities, or mass-surveillance style methods. It's not true of other types like confidence tricks and social engineering, eavesdropping and potentially watching passwords being entered or getting them on camera, phishing, fake wifi points, tailored viruses, or cookie hacking. Those methods can be designed for a specific target. Of course, there's also the good old-fashioned method of getting a warrant for data.

The entire concept that the government has "a right" to this data - an argument I've seen judges actually make to justify these activities - is ludicrous. They don't have a right to it by default. They have a compelling interest in the data/information if and only if there is enough reason to believe someone is up to criminal activity. In which case they should have no problem at all getting a warrant.

Re: The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets (2015)

#83

Post by novaleaf »

cdf2theworld wrote: post #74
yorwba wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One would hope that they were trying to gain access to someone else's devices, as opposed to turning the guns towards their own citizens and economy. Apple devices are sold all over the world, so there's no way of gaining access to the enemy's devices without that method also being applicable to everyone else. Actually using them on everyone else is a different matter.

"the enemy's devices" Which enemy?

I don't think it's objectionable that any countries Intelligence Service tries to identify threats before it's too late.

Re: The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets (2015)

#84

Post by cdf2theworld »

opportune wrote: post #81
friedman23 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about in the last 50 years

You wouldn't hear about the most recent campaigns because they wouldn't be declassified yet.

And even that was not declassified, in the normal sense. Documents were burgled by patriots and released to the public.

Re: The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets (2015)

#85

Post by cdf2theworld »

Kalium wrote: post #80
cdf2theworld wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So for the sake of possibly needing to break into a non-US citizen's iPhone, they do research to create exploits that put EVERY US citizen who uses an iPhone at risk? And they really don't have a great track record of keeping these exploits safe [1] 1: https://www.vadesecure.com/en/nsa-malware-malware-protection...

If there was a way to have exploits that only affected non-citizens, I would expect them to explore that enthusiastically. I suspect there is no such thing, but I would absolutely love to be enlightened as to how completely wrong I am! With that in mind, do you think it would be wise for an intelligence agency to refuse to consider searching for exploitable holes in a platform that is known for a fact to occasionally…

You're right, there's no existing solution to exempt US citizens from these exploits. However, with the massive resources available to them, if they focused on enhancing our security rather than fouling it, I very much believe we would be better off. Think about how much crime occurs in the modern era through electronic hacks and exploits. Would it be better to have these intel back channels, or to stop these crimes? Their priorities are in the wrong place, through tradition more than anything else.

There are many, many platforms that are "occasionally used by adversaries". The Intelligence Community has put exceptional resources towards one that has a very significant market share among it's citizens. And given the wholesale surveillance we are already under, I can't accept that this was an innocuous decision.

Trust is built through positive actions over time. I have zero trust for our Intelligence Community as is; and I've actually worked with US intelligence. If they devoted a majority of their efforts to finding and patching security risks through public and open source means, I would slowly start to trust them again.

Re: The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets (2015)

#86

Post by marssaxman »

megous wrote: post #44
marssaxman wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you all must have a different relationship with your government in Canada than US citizens do. None of these agencies are "on my own team". They are all adversaries. I feel far more threatened by US government hacking precisely because I live inside US jurisdiction. If we were to have a difference of opinions, and they were to snoop around in my data and decide they didn't like what they found, well, I'm sitt…

Poison you?

How much does a clandestine international assassination cost? Why would anyone bother?

Re: The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets (2015)

#87

Post by Kalium »

cdf2theworld wrote: post #85
Kalium wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there was a way to have exploits that only affected non-citizens, I would expect them to explore that enthusiastically. I suspect there is no such thing, but I would absolutely love to be enlightened as to how completely wrong I am! With that in mind, do you think it would be wise for an intelligence agency to refuse to consider searching for exploitable holes in a platform that is known for a fact to occasionally…

You're right, there's no existing solution to exempt US citizens from these exploits. However, with the massive resources available to them, if they focused on enhancing our security rather than fouling it, I very much believe we would be better off. Think about how much crime occurs in the modern era through electronic hacks and exploits. Would it be better to have these intel back channels, or to stop these crimes?…

You're so completely right that the NSA, CIA, and more already agree with you!

The IC invests massive resources into enhancing security. I've seen it firsthand - software projects like SELinux and a whole slew of research projects come to mind in addition to stuff I worked on. Though if you've only ever been exposed to the other side of the house, it's easy to be ignorant that the defensive missions exist at all. Certainly it tends to not make any news, ever.

Re: The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets (2015)

#88

Post by soraminazuki »

everdrive wrote: post #18
whatshisface wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> WTF do you think they do all day? One would hope that they were trying to gain access to someone else's devices, as opposed to turning the guns towards their own citizens and economy. If a soldier showed up at my door and pointed their gun at me, my reaction wouldn't be "of course you're doing that, your job is to point guns."

No one outside of America has ever bought an Apple device, obviously.

People outside of America also have human rights.

Re: The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets (2015)

#89

Post by everdrive »

soraminazuki wrote: post #88
everdrive wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one outside of America has ever bought an Apple device, obviously.

People outside of America also have human rights.

I never said it was moral or ok, just that it doesn't suggest that the purpose is spy on Americans.

Re: The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets (2015)

#90

Post by cdf2theworld »

Kalium wrote: post #87
cdf2theworld wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right, there's no existing solution to exempt US citizens from these exploits. However, with the massive resources available to them, if they focused on enhancing our security rather than fouling it, I very much believe we would be better off. Think about how much crime occurs in the modern era through electronic hacks and exploits. Would it be better to have these intel back channels, or to stop these crimes?…

You're so completely right that the NSA, CIA, and more already agree with you ! The IC invests massive resources into enhancing security. I've seen it firsthand - software projects like SELinux and a whole slew of research projects come to mind in addition to stuff I worked on. Though if you've only ever been exposed to the other side of the house, it's easy to be ignorant that the defensive missions exist at all. Ce…

It's true, I've only been on the military side of the IC, so everything I've been exposed to has been offensive in nature. That being said, the attitude of everyone I've met in the IC has been "we need to be able to access everything, at any cost". This attitude comes from the top (how else would it be so pervasive), and it is completely at odds with any sense of security for the average citizen. I think that this overall attitude is what really skews me. I'm familiar with SELinux, and why it was made open source; but I'm also familiar with Dual_EC_DRBG. Seems SELinux release may have been more a red herring or PR stunt than an actual attempt to protect security of the average person, given how much effort they put into defeating the security of the average person.
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