The Challenge of Going Off Psychiatric Drugs • Hacker News Board

Re: The Challenge of Going Off Psychiatric Drugs

#141

Post by darpa_escapee » Tue, Apr 02, 2019, 2:40 AM UTC

kmm wrote: post #131

When I stopped taking Venlafaxine (Effexor), the side-effects were immensely unpleasant. Brain zaps, panic attacks, hypersensitivity to light, barely any cognitive function. My psychiatrist was a sweet lady, but she did not appear to understand how tough it was for me. It boggles my mind she did not get it, she must have had so many patients stop with the medication, did she just not take any of them seriously? In th…

> I don't know if you're allowed to do that, maybe there is no guarantee that every grain contains the same amount of medication?

There are entire fields of material science dedicated to this problem. Generally, if a single pill is metered into smaller doses, resources went into ensuring that each dose is metered accurately. The grain form was probably for absorption or time-release.

Re: The Challenge of Going Off Psychiatric Drugs

#142

Post by mastox » Tue, Apr 02, 2019, 2:51 AM UTC

GlenTheMachine wrote: post #137

mastox wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had no idea the impact of benzo's but my first thought after reading the OP and experiencing Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) myself, "Isn't that just a band-aid, not really treating the 'wound'". I guess I'm just agreeing with you from a philosophical point of view. For what's its worth for anyone (including OP) reading this, I found success in studying philosophy as a poor man's CBT especially Existentialism. I…

As I said in the parent post, I agree, and I am in fact tapering. I'm down to half my original dose. I'm taking it slow. This is something where you really need to listen to your body; it isn't helpful to have a set plan. You need a goal, but you also need to be flexible about it. I tried CBT, and it didn't work. Admittedly I only tried it once. There are lots of different flavors of CBT for insomnia, and maybe if I…

> I'm taking it slow. This is something where you really need to listen to your body; it isn't helpful to have a set plan. You need a goal, but you also need to be flexible about it.

Truth!! I had to discover this for myself as well, and I'm continuing to figure it out as I go (currently lost about 50lbs in a 150lbs weight loss journey).

I'm sorry if I came across as judgemental, nor do I want to diminish your accomplishment. As someone on both sides of these drugs, it is no easy feat to make this big of a change. Kudos!!!

It sounds like the medication has done its job in that it has given you relief to get some sanity back and to focus on other options.

Re: The Challenge of Going Off Psychiatric Drugs

#143

Post by tcj_phx » Tue, Apr 02, 2019, 2:53 AM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #94

tcj_phx wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Abilify is one of the least-bad of its class. But it doesn't address the metabolic problem that is at the root of psychosis. Coconut oil, niacin/niacinamide (vitamin B-3), and other pro-metabolic interventions help get at the actual causes behind the diagnosis. Coconut oil is helpful because it can be directly metabolized by the cells, whereas longer saturated fats have to be ... processed somehow before they can be…

You can't cure psychosis with fucking coconut oil. PLease stop peddling this dangerous advice.

Your profile says you have some experience in the mental health world.

> You can't cure psychosis with fucking coconut oil.

The person I responded to said in a later comment that his psychosis was related to alcohol use. This being the case, coconut oil is an appropriate treatment to help keep his alcohol use under control.

> PLease stop peddling this dangerous advice.

People like HN user clydethefrog (above) and my girlfriend (my comment history) are hurt by the mental health industry's standard of care. Someone probably told clydethefrog that he has now has a chronic condition and that he'll have to be on "antipsychotics" for the rest of his life to keep from becoming psychotic again.

One case study acknowledges the possibility that people who made themselves psychotic through alcohol withdrawal can be made delusional with Abilify [1]. The actual experience of patients is that maintenance antipsychotics makes their condition worse [2].

I think in the very near future the mental health system will have no choice but to listen to the resistance's complaints.

[1] https://europepmc.org/abstract/med/26502575 - "At first, we regarded all the symptoms as alcoholic hallucinosis, by a clinical standpoint, in spite of no auditory hallucination in this case. However, taking the overall clinical course into consideration, withdrawal syndrome could have been affected by some factors. One of the possibilities is that delusion might have been induced by aripiprazole." (emphasis added)

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tardive_psychosis

Re: The Challenge of Going Off Psychiatric Drugs

#144

Post by tcj_phx » Tue, Apr 02, 2019, 2:58 AM UTC

fraudsyndrome wrote: post #134

azernik wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Mood stabilizer" is a quite accurate description of the usual function of the drug - in bipolar patients like me, it reduces the magnitude and stabilizes the period of mood swings. Mood stabilizers also tend to be anti-seizure meds, and have all kinds of off-label uses because of neurological phenomena we don't understand, but the label is a very useful one. Same for antidepressants - often the same drugs (especiall…

I have a close friend with paranoid schizophrenia and also bipolar who, after an episode, underwent ECT. The medication that stopped him from hearing voices pre ECT/episode started again after ECT. After a year, the Psychiatrist is still trying to find the right combination of medication to stop it - they've (I think) more than tripled his current dosage of lithium along with others that I'm not aware of but it's unp…

Sometimes less treatment is better than more treatment. If your friend will let you go to his appointments, maybe you can advocate on your friend's behalf.

If he's ordered to submit to involuntary mental health treatment, you can probably request judicial review on his behalf. This would be to let the court know that your friend was doing better before the ECT treatment, and that you are concerned that some of his problems are now caused by the treatment itself.

Edit: I commented on lithium a few weeks ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19299137

Re: The Challenge of Going Off Psychiatric Drugs

#145

Post by mastox » Tue, Apr 02, 2019, 3:03 AM UTC

flycaliguy wrote: post #115

mastox wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had no idea the impact of benzo's but my first thought after reading the OP and experiencing Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) myself, "Isn't that just a band-aid, not really treating the 'wound'". I guess I'm just agreeing with you from a philosophical point of view. For what's its worth for anyone (including OP) reading this, I found success in studying philosophy as a poor man's CBT especially Existentialism. I…

Stoic philosophy has a lot of overlap with CBT. It basically re-opened those cbt books for me and kept me at it.

Also true. And I've probably been heavily influenced by Stoicism as well, its hard to keep track where the lines are when there's so much overlap between the three.

Re: The Challenge of Going Off Psychiatric Drugs

#146

Post by darpa_escapee » Tue, Apr 02, 2019, 3:07 AM UTC

limeblack wrote: post #54

"Lamictal, a mood stabilizer; Lexapro, an antidepressant; and Seroquel, an antipsychotic that she was told to use as a sleep aid." Lamictal and Seroquel can cause an often permanent condition called tardive dyskinesia[1]. Basically the dopamine receptors tend to permanent up scale leading to sleep disorders. This is fairly unique compared to most Psychiatric drugs out there. [1]: http://www.onlinelawyersource.com/tar…

Dopamine blockade isn't significantly induced by doses of Seroquel used for sleep. Although it and its metabolites do have action at certain dopamine receptors, lower doses will first occupy other receptors that they have a higher binding affinity for. Its metabolites are partial agonists at 5HT1A autoreceptors that induce downstream release of dopamine, which theoretically reduces the risk of tardive dyskinesia from direct dopamine blockade.

If you're curious about this, Stahl's Essential Psychopharmacology textbook goes into detail about this and is written in a way that some idiot (me) on HN can grok it.

Re: The Challenge of Going Off Psychiatric Drugs

#147

Post by limeblack » Tue, Apr 02, 2019, 3:18 AM UTC

darpa_escapee wrote: post #146

limeblack wrote: post #54

"Lamictal, a mood stabilizer; Lexapro, an antidepressant; and Seroquel, an antipsychotic that she was told to use as a sleep aid." Lamictal and Seroquel can cause an often permanent condition called tardive dyskinesia[1]. Basically the dopamine receptors tend to permanent up scale leading to sleep disorders. This is fairly unique compared to most Psychiatric drugs out there. [1]: http://www.onlinelawyersource.com/tar…

Dopamine blockade isn't significantly induced by doses of Seroquel used for sleep. Although it and its metabolites do have action at certain dopamine receptors, lower doses will first occupy other receptors that they have a higher binding affinity for. Its metabolites are partial agonists at 5HT1A autoreceptors that induce downstream release of dopamine, which theoretically reduces the risk of tardive dyskinesia from…

> Dopamine blockade isn't significantly induced by doses of Seroquel used for sleep.

True at typical low dosages.

I have been on Seroquel at very high dosages for sleep and the doctor gave me the explanation above. I have after multiple attempts failed to taper off of it. I have even tried liquid. I will definitely check out the book. The key issue being that the receptor up scale permanently.

Re: The Challenge of Going Off Psychiatric Drugs

#148

Post by limeblack » Tue, Apr 02, 2019, 3:24 AM UTC

rednerrus wrote: post #108

limeblack wrote: post #54

"Lamictal, a mood stabilizer; Lexapro, an antidepressant; and Seroquel, an antipsychotic that she was told to use as a sleep aid." Lamictal and Seroquel can cause an often permanent condition called tardive dyskinesia[1]. Basically the dopamine receptors tend to permanent up scale leading to sleep disorders. This is fairly unique compared to most Psychiatric drugs out there. [1]: http://www.onlinelawyersource.com/tar…

I don't see Lamictal on that list: https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/000685.htm

I believe the risk is fairly small compared to the drugs on that list which is why its left out. Not that I trust this site more then a government site, but this list has it[1].

[1] https://www.ehealthme.com/ds/lamictal/tardive-dyskinesia/

Re: The Challenge of Going Off Psychiatric Drugs

#149

Post by fraudsyndrome » Tue, Apr 02, 2019, 3:42 AM UTC

tcj_phx wrote: post #144

fraudsyndrome wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a close friend with paranoid schizophrenia and also bipolar who, after an episode, underwent ECT. The medication that stopped him from hearing voices pre ECT/episode started again after ECT. After a year, the Psychiatrist is still trying to find the right combination of medication to stop it - they've (I think) more than tripled his current dosage of lithium along with others that I'm not aware of but it's unp…

Sometimes less treatment is better than more treatment. If your friend will let you go to his appointments, maybe you can advocate on your friend's behalf. If he's ordered to submit to involuntary mental health treatment, you can probably request judicial review on his behalf. This would be to let the court know that your friend was doing better before the ECT treatment, and that you are concerned that some of his pr…

Thanks for the reply

How can I, advocate on my friend's behalf against a Psychiatrist who has been working with him for years when I have no expertise in the field? Do I trust that his Psychiatrist has already thought the same thing?

Maybe I can leak some info to him (like those articles) so he can think for himself and talk to his Psychiatrist about it.

Technically he was doing better pre-ECT, but stress got to him and when comparing to when he had his episode (lasted a while before deciding on ECT), technically he's doing better post-ECT than during that phase.

I'll take a look at that thread, thanks

Re: The Challenge of Going Off Psychiatric Drugs

#150

Post by tylerjwilk00 » Tue, Apr 02, 2019, 3:43 AM UTC

I was prescribed a benzo for insomnia and thought nothing of it.

I went from enjoying a good night's sleep to completely dependant on it just to function.

The only way to describe it was that I became "psychologically fragile" such as if things didn't go exactly according to expectations I would be in a state of panic and fear. It was horrible.

I decided then to go cold turkey (no one told me otherwise) and it was hell! I thought I would die or lose my mind. To say nothing of the electric shock sensations that were constant and the feeling that my skin was buzzing. After a couple months I felt like myself again and my mental fortitude had returned. I will never take another.

For me the benzo class of meds are way more dangerous than helpful.